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Locked: Poll: Did WotC lie?
6 months ago  ::  Dec 13, 2012 - 1:56AM #1
lokiare
Date Joined: Nov 3, 2008
Posts: 14,703
Based on this statement by the Lead Software Developer of DDi:

Oct 27, 2010 -- 12:02AM, PaoloM wrote:

This new webtool is going to be awesome! You will find it supplements our existing tools very nicely. We aren't ready to tell you what it is, but when it comes out you'll be happy. Seriuosly, I'm quite proud of the work we did. I really think you'll like it.




Which was a rewording of this post:

Oct 26, 2010 -- 9:20PM, Preston_R wrote:

Hey, I want to be excited about the new web based tools. Considering the announcement was paired with an announcement of a failure to properly update the offline tools its not hard to see why people put 2 and Yellow together and got Pineapple. :P

But I do want to be excited. Instead of being able to be excited though no one from WotC has come here to quell our fears or ease our anxiety. No one, for whatever reason, has come down to corral the rumors. A simple "Its not a replacement for the offline character builder" would suffice. But instead WotC (for whatever reason) has decided to allow those rumors to continue, which then makes them seem true (if they are false OF COURSE someone would come tell us to relax, right? I mean, whoever is in charge can't be that dense!) and just adds fuel to the flame.

I want to be excited. All it would take to get me to shiver in antici...

...pation would be a simple statement from WotC "This new webtool is going to be awesome! You will find it supplements our existing tools very nicely. We aren't ready to tell you what it is, but when it comes out you'll be happy."




Which was then followed up by this post by the lead programmer of DDi:

Oct 27, 2010 -- 10:44AM, PaoloM wrote:

On the other hand, I am known to make jokes

But in this case, I didn't say anything untrue. It is going to be awesome and we're not yet ready to tell you more about it.

And, considering that in the end this is a game, I like environments that are fun and entertaining. The constant negativity (and it is warranted sometimes, I know very well) is just tiring and doesn't get us anywhere. I'm not advocating rah rah gushing posts with no room for dissenters, but dogpiles and repetitions... are just not fun.





Do you think that WotC lied to us or not?



Look here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. I'm looking for players for a 4E fantasy grounds game.Swallowed Lich's Implement, help please.
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6 months ago  ::  Dec 13, 2012 - 2:01AM #2
Zardnaar
Date Joined: Apr 15, 2001
Posts: 8,345
Relevent to D&DN how?
Reducing a character to a list of dice rolls and modifiers is not role playing*

*pg 30, AD&D 2nd Ed DMG, 1989.
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6 months ago  ::  Dec 13, 2012 - 2:04AM #3
kadim
Date Joined: Jun 21, 2012
Posts: 2,766

On the face of it, yes. But this is the internet and it's becoming more and more established that statements made on the internet are less likely to be taken as a statement of fact. The language in the posts you've quoted suggest that these are statements of opinion and not statements of fact.


The Oatmeal has a recent comic on a similar topic that I'm sure some of the designers at WOTC can relate to.


EDIT


Dec 13, 2012 -- 2:01AM, Zardnaar wrote:

Relevent to D&DN how?



Yeah I was wondering that too.

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6 months ago  ::  Dec 13, 2012 - 2:24AM #4
lokiare
Date Joined: Nov 3, 2008
Posts: 14,703

Dec 13, 2012 -- 2:04AM, kadim wrote:


On the face of it, yes. But this is the internet and it's becoming more and more established that statements made on the internet are less likely to be taken as a statement of fact. The language in the posts you've quoted suggest that these are statements of opinion and not statements of fact.


The Oatmeal has a recent comic on a similar topic that I'm sure some of the designers at WOTC can relate to.


EDIT


Dec 13, 2012 -- 2:01AM, Zardnaar wrote:

Relevent to D&DN how?



Yeah I was wondering that too.




Its all about trust. Can we trust WotC to tell us the truth and not try to deceive us into buying something we don't want with 5E? Will people stay away from 5E because of WotC reputation? If people think WotC lies all the time they may just refuse to buy their products on principle. Its entirely relevant...Smile

Look here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. I'm looking for players for a 4E fantasy grounds game.Swallowed Lich's Implement, help please.
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6 months ago  ::  Dec 13, 2012 - 3:04AM #5
Zardnaar
Date Joined: Apr 15, 2001
Posts: 8,345
 Sorry the reality warping leaps of judgement are a bit much.
Reducing a character to a list of dice rolls and modifiers is not role playing*

*pg 30, AD&D 2nd Ed DMG, 1989.
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6 months ago  ::  Dec 13, 2012 - 3:39AM #6
lokiare
Date Joined: Nov 3, 2008
Posts: 14,703

Dec 13, 2012 -- 3:04AM, Zardnaar wrote:

 Sorry the reality warping leaps of judgement are a bit much.




I agree, the justifications and excuses people give for WotC's behavior is just mind boggling...Smile

Look here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. I'm looking for players for a 4E fantasy grounds game.Swallowed Lich's Implement, help please.
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6 months ago  ::  Dec 13, 2012 - 3:51AM #7
dave2008
  • Dragon Slayer
Date Joined: Jan 27, 2009
Posts: 983
I have to agreee with Kadim, I don't see a statement of fact in the quotes above.  It appears to be a statement of opinion.  As such, it is not a lie.  "Is going to be awesome" is an opinion, not a statement of fact. 
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6 months ago  ::  Dec 13, 2012 - 4:03AM #8
lokiare
Date Joined: Nov 3, 2008
Posts: 14,703

Dec 13, 2012 -- 3:51AM, dave2008 wrote:

I have to agreee with Kadim, I don't see a statement of fact in the quotes above.  It appears to be a statement of opinion.  As such, it is not a lie.  "Is going to be awesome" is an opinion, not a statement of fact. 




You like others have a blind spot. Here let me point it out for you:

"You will find it supplements our existing tools very nicely."

Followed by:

"But in this case, I didn't say anything untrue."

Combined they mean that the new program, the Online Character Builder, would supplement the other tools. Since the Monster Builder had nothing to do with building characters, how exactly does a replacement tool supplement it? See lie. Its not that hard to open your eyes and read it...Smile

Look here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. I'm looking for players for a 4E fantasy grounds game.Swallowed Lich's Implement, help please.
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6 months ago  ::  Dec 13, 2012 - 4:21AM #9
kadim
Date Joined: Jun 21, 2012
Posts: 2,766

Those are not statements of fact. Saying what I will or will not find works well with something else is a sales pitch, which is broadly considered to not be a statement of fact. Him saying he didn't say anything untrue is a statement of fact but it's also a true statement of fact because the cited statements cannot be considered a statement of fact. It certainly wouldn't hold up in court.


The context of the statements is also important when determining whether something is a statement of fact or not. Generally speaking, stuff on a forum or other internet medium (particularly in the US) is regarded as opinion.


What it means to you is fine but that doesn't mean that WOTC as a company or through a representative in any meaningful sense lied to anyone. Whether you feel deceived by comments that were taken to be said on the company's behalf is not the same as a public lie. At best what you've got here is a bit of PR that didn't pan out, like when you buy a different brand of washing up liquid that claims to be as good as your last one but isn't.


If someone tells me this Super Bowl will be the best one yet and I'll find the half time show to be even more inventive than last year, I don't take that as a statement of fact because of the context it's made - namely, a sales pitch or a statement of an excited fan.


What you've shown me is the statement of an excited fan.


edit: oh yeah, and "supplement" could mean a lot of things, including simply that you'll use it alongside something else.

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6 months ago  ::  Dec 13, 2012 - 4:28AM #10
Steely_Dan
Date Joined: Mar 26, 2007
Posts: 8,628
This thread has not drifted into the arena of the unwell...it started there...
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