Like the title says! Is Frostcheese still the premier pick for general damage optimization?

I ask because a few buddies of mine were bashing it the other day, saying that there are more important feats to grab. I can see that being true for specific builds, but does that apply in general? Has a new feat combo been released/discovered that I haven't heard of? 

Frost package is still awesome (sans Wintertouched), particularly for multiattackers or party op. Even for low op, just the +5 damage from gloves and shard is hard to say no to even if you didn't take lasting frost. Radiant mafia is better past level 16 of course. Not every build wants frost though, and yes, there can be more important feats/items depending on equipment restrictions, role you want to play, and so on. Some builds are very feat starved, and may skip lasting frost. Also depends on the tier you're playing, epic has some different needs. So... Obvious answer, it's awesome, but not for everyone and every level.

Sans Wintertouched?

A bit confused now. Could ya list what all is in the Frost package, so I know I'm doing this correctly? Aaaand, Radiant would be cool too. Less resistance, and we're starting the new campaign at 16 anyway...

I'm one of two strikers, by the way. Not sure if I want rogue or avenger yet...sick of playing rangers and barbarians. 

Frostcheese --meaning Lasting Frost and cold shards and gloves and a frost weapon-- is still a premiere selection for generic damage optimization. However, Wintertouched is a garbage feat, there being much better CA feats to take.

For radiant mafia you need just this:

1) Radiant Weapons
2) A Morninglord

Everything else is just gravy on top.  If you are going for radiant mafia I'd go HE Twinstrike Avenger and make sure you get a boon from good old Pelor.  Granted that will play a lot like a ranger... but its pretty amazingly powerful.

Eh, if I'm just going to be a shiny ranger, i'd rather not go down that road. Twin striking my way to epic was funny for all of 10 levels before I realized I was LITERALLY twin striking to epic :T that, and i'd rather not take a PP based solely on the mechanics (you're speakin' to a dude that could not give two damns about sun gods).

So Frost it is!

Since Wintertouched is gabbage, is there a "CA Feats" thread I could look at to see what will work? Since i'm leanin' rogue anyway, I'm going to need endless CA anyway. My party members are not the type to flank, by the way. They'd literally avoid flanking to do something completely lulzy, like taking up 3 rounds of combat prying loose a stone that has an explosive rune glyphed on it and throwing it at the BBG...for 4d6 damage :I

So, yeah; best ways to get (near) eternal CA? And what book suppliment has the ice gloves or whatever they're called?

Also, this has been like, the most genuinely pleasant and helpful thread i've made...where the hell is Zathris?

its possile to go both radiant and frost with Pervasive Light, if you can get the divine power source.

Pervasive Light

Paragon Tier
Prerequisite: 11th level, any divine class
Benefit: When you hit a target that has vulnerability to radiant damage with an attack that does not deal radiant damage, you deal extra damage equal to that vulnerability.

Dec 10, 2012 -- 3:06PM, captpike wrote:

its possile to go both radiant and frost with Pervasive Light, if you can get the divine power source.

Pervasive Light

Paragon Tier
Prerequisite: 11th level, any divine class
Benefit: When you hit a target that has vulnerability to radiant damage with an attack that does not deal radiant damage, you deal extra damage equal to that vulnerability.

Its also perfectly possible to toss on cold into your radiant attacks as well (whetstones are the most straightforward but there are tons of ways).

If you're a melee rogue, pick up Cunning Stalker for those times when your allies refuse to walk up to the enemy to provide you with flank. If they actively seek positions that make it impossible for you to flank, you can also grab Pack Outcast theme if you are human, or just Fey Beast Tamer. But rogues have so many ways to gain CA, I don't think you'll need the theme to gain CA by level 16.

Dec 10, 2012 -- 3:14PM, Matyr wrote:

Dec 10, 2012 -- 3:06PM, captpike wrote:

its possile to go both radiant and frost with Pervasive Light, if you can get the divine power source.

Pervasive Light

Paragon Tier
Prerequisite: 11th level, any divine class
Benefit: When you hit a target that has vulnerability to radiant damage with an attack that does not deal radiant damage, you deal extra damage equal to that vulnerability.

Its also perfectly possible to toss on cold into your radiant attacks as well (whetstones are the most straightforward but there are tons of ways).

Or radiant onto your cold attacks (but they must natively be cold; Arcane Admixtured Eldritch Strike probably) using a Crusader's Weapon.

Eh, Wintertouched is not that awful on a rogue. I mean, if you're going to grab a CA feat, I'd still pick that over Cunning Stalker. Basically, by the time you get to the point where Frostcheese comes online, you've a pretty good idea regarding how cooperative your party is to determine whether you need that CA feat or not. A lot of CO regulars will insist that it isn't necessary, but it really depends on group dynamics.

Frostcheese is probably the best on the Rogue of any class, simply because they lack any class-unique paragon damage options.

Dec 10, 2012 -- 3:14PM, Matyr wrote:

Dec 10, 2012 -- 3:06PM, captpike wrote:

its possile to go both radiant and frost with Pervasive Light, if you can get the divine power source.

Pervasive Light

Paragon Tier
Prerequisite: 11th level, any divine class
Benefit: When you hit a target that has vulnerability to radiant damage with an attack that does not deal radiant damage, you deal extra damage equal to that vulnerability.

Its also perfectly possible to toss on cold into your radiant attacks as well (whetstones are the most straightforward but there are tons of ways).

the problem is how vuln stacks, if you are playing that you only get the highest Pervasive Light is a way around it, if you can apply all vuln then you dont need it.

Alrighty! This was really helpful, guys. I think i've got a good idea of what I want, now.

Dec 10, 2012 -- 5:04PM, captpike wrote:

Dec 10, 2012 -- 3:14PM, Matyr wrote:

Dec 10, 2012 -- 3:06PM, captpike wrote:

its possile to go both radiant and frost with Pervasive Light, if you can get the divine power source.

Pervasive Light

Paragon Tier
Prerequisite: 11th level, any divine class
Benefit: When you hit a target that has vulnerability to radiant damage with an attack that does not deal radiant damage, you deal extra damage equal to that vulnerability.

Its also perfectly possible to toss on cold into your radiant attacks as well (whetstones are the most straightforward but there are tons of ways).

the problem is how vuln stacks, if you are playing that you only get the highest Pervasive Light is a way around it, if you can apply all vuln then you dont need it.

I thought it was only the case that vulnerability to the same damage type didn't stack?

I can't find anything in the rules compendium which would suggest frost and radiant vulnerability don't stack.

As I recall, specific vulnerability is 'get highest', but all vulnerability stacks with specific. So a Sever The Source on a Morninglord Ranger will yield 30ish extra damage per hit, but you won't get 35ish if you also have Lasting Frost on top.

And re: Wintertouched, people underrate the usefulness of it, particularly if enemies are slippery or, especially, if your controller is third-rate. Being able to say 'I get CA on my burst' is really great, honestly, and Mengu's suggestion that you should sacrifice the rerolling of Ironwrought or minor action attack of Sohei for a CA theme is crazytalk. Those two will always outperform the CA themes.

What about Frostcheese on a Ranger|Cleric hybrid? I'm building one for a game I'm in... and I was looking for a path to go.

Do you have a CON mod worth anything (even +2 is good, +1 will do if you don't have INT)? If so, MC Monk, Soaring Blade. Else, Malec-Keth Janissary. Failing that, MC Barbarian for Winterfury. In all of these cases you want to switch to another weapon enchant to take advantage of getting frost from elsewhere.

Dec 10, 2012 -- 8:22PM, Armisael wrote:

Do you have a CON mod worth anything (even +2 is good, +1 will do if you don't have INT)? If so, MC Monk, Soaring Blade. Else, Malec-Keth Janissary. Failing that, MC Barbarian for Winterfury. In all of these cases you want to switch to another weapon enchant to take advantage of getting frost from elsewhere.

I hope that isn't in response to the Ranger|Cleric as that build almost always wants to MC Fighter

Dec 10, 2012 -- 7:43PM, Armisael wrote:

and Mengu's suggestion that you should sacrifice the rerolling of Ironwrought or minor action attack of Sohei for a CA theme is crazytalk. Those two will always outperform the CA themes.

I also said if you're a rogue, you don't need the CA themes. I prefer non-strikers with those themes, like a warden with pack outcast, or druid with feybeast, but whatever floats your boat. No denying Ironwrought and Sohei are very good.

Dec 10, 2012 -- 8:29PM, Matyr wrote:

Dec 10, 2012 -- 8:22PM, Armisael wrote:

Do you have a CON mod worth anything (even +2 is good, +1 will do if you don't have INT)? If so, MC Monk, Soaring Blade. Else, Malec-Keth Janissary. Failing that, MC Barbarian for Winterfury. In all of these cases you want to switch to another weapon enchant to take advantage of getting frost from elsewhere.

I hope that isn't in response to the Ranger|Cleric as that build almost always wants to MC Fighter

Why would you want to MC fighter when it is trivial to get immediate action attacks? Off the top of my head...Backlash Tattoo, Mighty Hew, and that's two immediates. If you want you can burn a ResMan on one more immediate but I think two is plenty, considering you might pick up immediate defensive actions.

Backlash is freaking terrible, you'll do more damage with Arcane Blood or Wolverine.

Dec 10, 2012 -- 11:38PM, Zathris wrote:

Backlash is freaking terrible, you'll do more damage with Arcane Blood or Wolverine.

Come on now, Zath, you're seriously gonna argue a whopping 3 damage is better than an MBA? Or how about an outstanding +2? Really now? I mean, if you're gonna make the argument that Backlash's unreliable, sure, go ahead, but that's more hyperbole than a claim that the Runepriest is an S-tier class.

(If you want to argue the higher level versions, my counterpoint is simple: Backlash is cheap, and low-maintenance. That's huge when you have lots of random **** you want to get as you level, which is a very real knock against the force tat. The Wolverine tat is just terrible.)

Hyperbole aside, and talking about being able to abuse Frost Vuln while accessing other damage types while keeping a decent supply of IAs of various triggers and effects? Of my 5 characters I've leveled from 1 to 20, only one of them would have benefitted more from Backlash than Arcane Blood, my Sorceress who had relatively few offensive IAs (especially without a leader enabling the use of WLMR).

And really, I have to question (not dismiss, mind you, it's potentially valid pending Maths) the use of PPs to gain Cold on a fairly feat starved character with active access to both Morninglord and Tactical Warpriest. Probably ends up being a Party-Op question, which is why you think you already know the answer.

I feel like, if you're already set up in such a way that you will never want for immediates, a Strikeback Tattoo or Teamstrike Tattoo might serve you better than the Arcane Blood tat. Sure, both are conditional (in different ways), but it's not like either of them is going to be a waste. The Teamstrike tat especially is just a really good buy for the whole party if you can swing it because it's an actionless partywide buff to taking down a dangerous enemy (assuming you're using APs well, at least...this might not be as useful in certain parties admittedly). Nothing bad about giving most people plusses to important rolls.

Yes, getting the immediate is worth it and fighter support is incredible.  Now, to some effect you have to argue what level ranges we are talking about here but having IIs with really easy triggers is amazingly useful.

I've played a Ranger|Cleric from 1-9 so far and I would have to say that having Mighty Hew, Guardian's Counter, Disruptive Strike and Battle Awareness have been amazing.  Do I get to use every one every combat?  Quite often yes.  Sometimes I don't get the right trigger, but helping to enable the defender (yes, enable the defender) is very nice for party-op.  The Ranger|Cleric with a lot of interrupts is great for setting up catch-22s especially if one of those is guardian's counter. 

On the Ranger|Cleric, MC Warden is generally better than MC Fighter.

Dec 10, 2012 -- 7:43PM, Armisael wrote:

As I recall, specific vulnerability is 'get highest', but all vulnerability stacks with specific.

You recall exactly backwards; Vuln All doesn't stack with any other vulnerability, Vuln Specifics will all apply.

Dec 11, 2012 -- 6:46AM, erachima wrote:

On the Ranger|Cleric, MC Warden is generally better than MC Fighter.

Dec 10, 2012 -- 7:43PM, Armisael wrote:

As I recall, specific vulnerability is 'get highest', but all vulnerability stacks with specific.

You recall exactly backwards; Vuln All doesn't stack with any other vulnerability, Vuln Specifics will all apply.

Warden is also another very good option, but when I was looking at it I didn't see it giving as much benefit until paragon.

I'm making a lvl 22 Ranger (hunter style) for a one-shot dungeon crawl, and decided to use the frost bow+gloves+lasting frost+wintertouched. After reading this thread I have three questions:
1. What feat would be better than wintertouched?
2. Is a +3 feat bonus to all attacks better than a +4 feat bonus to attacks with the cold keyword?
3. How do shards work? 

Dec 11, 2012 -- 6:52AM, Matyr wrote:

Dec 11, 2012 -- 6:46AM, erachima wrote:

On the Ranger|Cleric, MC Warden is generally better than MC Fighter.

Dec 10, 2012 -- 7:43PM, Armisael wrote:

As I recall, specific vulnerability is 'get highest', but all vulnerability stacks with specific.

You recall exactly backwards; Vuln All doesn't stack with any other vulnerability, Vuln Specifics will all apply.

Warden is also another very good option, but when I was looking at it I didn't see it giving as much benefit until paragon.

It doesn't, but you don't really need it until paragon anyway.

Dec 11, 2012 -- 6:46AM, erachima wrote:

On the Ranger|Cleric, MC Warden is generally better than MC Fighter.

Can you explain why?

---

Also re: Backlash Tattoo. I also think it's severely overrated in guides. A traditionally char-op standard character will have a whole queue of immediate actions, pretty much all of which has higher activation priority than Backlash. The chances of you being bloodied, in a favorable position to counter, not have gotten screwed over by reach/status effects, and not having a better reaction to use (you were just bloodied, probably might have wanted to use a defensive reaction instead) is incredibly small, making this tattoo extremely marginal.

My preference is actually for a Demonskin Tattoo. Having an energy resist on command is just good defensive policy and way more useful than you'd imagine.

Dec 11, 2012 -- 7:37AM, Be3Al2 wrote:

I'm making a lvl 22 Ranger (hunter style) for a one-shot dungeon crawl, and decided to use the frost bow+gloves+lasting frost+wintertouched. After reading this thread I have three questions:
1. What feat would be better than wintertouched?
2. Is a +3 feat bonus to all attacks better than a +4 feat bonus to attacks with the cold keyword?
3. How do shards work? 

1. Vistani Heritage is actually pretty awesome for this, especially for a ranged character, but with a little coordination, you should have other people in your party granting you CA through debuffs (daze, stun, blind being the most likely).  Note that if you're going with Snap Shot, VH will screw up your nova action economy in a lot of cases.

2. Depends on how many resist cold guys you expect to see.  Generally, I like focus over glow, but there's a strong case to be made for glow.

3. You bascially just attach them to your weapon and they add an untyped bonus to your damage rolls as long as you've switched the weapon to "on" in terms of its element.  Very easy and very good.  From a pure nova/math standpoint, putting all your eggs in one basket makes sense (in terms of taking both Silvery Glow and a dragonshard).  In practical play, I've found it more useful to diversify somewhat in case the DM decides to throw a bunch of foils at the party.

Thanks Spartan. The idea is to try out some concepts or similar, so I guess I'll try the "original" concept of frostcheese. Also, I should obviously look at the shard now that I know what it does.

If you're already paragon/epic Icy Heart trumps Silvery Glow anyway.

Icy Heart vs Weapon Focus are the feats I consider. I might have had the numbers wrong, but did not have time to check names or numbers when i posted.