We know the system is still in development, but at this stage, what do you find add tactical depth to D&D Next ?
Me, I find Breaking Up Movement add tactical depth and i like how it allow one to move any increment of 5 feet, stop to perform an action and resolve movement. Its makes movement more fluid than ever!
And you ?
I definitely dig the movement freedom!
For me, it's the open-endedness of definition. During the course of vast 4E public play, I observed tons of players spending entire combats staring at their character sheets and considering the map as a game board. It appeared to most that your ability to impact the story was clearly and solely defined by what was written on your character sheet. I now see colorful, imaginative battles, with players only referencing their character sheets when asked for numbers (and that happens less and less often as players are more apt to know their numbers off the top of their head).
Combat has become more dynamic by virtue of one's ability to shape it through storytelling, with much less definitive consequence being enforced by the coded rules.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
I don't. I play D&D for roleplaying, not tactical gaming.
I play Battletech for a hybrid.
I play board/war games for pure tactical.
DISCLAIMER - Everything said by anyone is absolute subjective opinion. There are no objective claims being made by me, or anyone else, unless they overtly state 'The following is an objective claim'. At this point if you choose to be offended by anything I (or anyone else) say the problem is ENTIRELY your own.
WotC won't let us give them money because they won't produce a game we want to play.
For me, I've found setting up adds or flanks. The beasties die quick, so each combat is a mini-skirmish. I tend to buff up badguys attack and hp, just to hit someone before they die. For me, I like cinematic combat and tactical maneuvers (not in the d&dn sense) does that for me. Mobility is a way cool part of that in my opinion. I liked the pace of the first playtest, actually. We had improvisations and quick combats which lasted 3-6 rounds. I like quick combat in real time, but long multi round combat in game.
"What's stupid is when people decide that X is true - even when it is demonstrable untrue or 100% against what we've said - and run around complaining about that. That's just a breakdown of basic human reasoning." -Mike Mearls
Imaginitive stories is not the same as tactical depth. Not that they have to be at odds, but i have yet to see a poetry of math, or creative calculus class.
"The union of the mathematician with the poet, fervor with measure, passion with correctness, this surely is the ideal." - William James
There is a collegiate textbook entitled 'Creative Mathematics' written by H.S. Hall that addresses the concepts of imagination and mathematical discovery. -- You should peruse the course catalogs of the Ivy Leagues, private/respected science and engineering schools, as well as those made available through organizations such as the Mathematical Society of America. Connecting words, art, and math in various ways, and considering the inputs, outputs, results and deeper meaning is definitely a thing.
I, personally, find tactical depth in my ability to do whatever the hell I want through narrative, without needing the specific outline of capability written on my character sheet. DDN gives me what I need to resolve discrepancy, serving as a basis of comparison when my story attempts to impact the DM's world. It stays out of my way, and doesn't present a sandbox of options that curtail my output by virtue of its explicitly limiting mechanical ruleset. The tactical complexity thereof is endless.
Imaginitive stories is not the same as tactical depth. Not that they have to be at odds, but i have yet to see a poetry of math, or creative calculus class.
"The union of the mathematician with the poet, fervor with measure, passion with correctness, this surely is the ideal." - William James
There is a collegiate textbook entitled 'Creative Mathematics' written by H.S. Hall that addresses the concepts of imagination and mathematical discovery. -- You should peruse the course catalogs of the Ivy Leagues, private/respected science and engineering schools, as well as those made available through organizations such as the Mathematical Society of America. Connecting words, art, and math in various ways, and considering the inputs, outputs, results and deeper meaning is definitely a thing.
I, personally, find tactical depth in my ability to do whatever the hell I want through narrative, without needing the specific outline of capability written on my character sheet. DDN gives me what I need to resolve discrepancy, serving as a basis of comparison when my story attempts to impact the DM's world. It stays out of my way, and doesn't present a sandbox of options that curtail my output by virtue of its explicitly limiting mechanical ruleset. The tactical complexity thereof is endless.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
Sure they can co-exsist. But there's still no depth to tactics if "hit first, hit hard" is always the solution.
It seems we have differing opinions on the definition of 'depth' and how it applies in this context.
I also don't understand what you're getting at. Are you telling me that my personal findings are wrong? (Because that's what I'm taking from your dissenting statements.)
No. Opening things up opens things up (though always getting the DM's permission can slow things down). But that doesn't really change the tactics of hit first, hit hard.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
I do like the rules light approach with the ability for all classes to attempt actions like push, knockdown, etc, but it is true that with monsters having such low hit points, and average encounters lasting 1-3 rounds (for at least the first 5 levels in the sessions I've DMd so far) there are less tactics used by PCs.
In fact, just last night, I played my first encounter as a player not a DM, and I experienced a situation where I felt the quickness of the combat inhibited my roleplaying. I played a Halfling Rogue, and my party and I were defending a gate to city from 4 kobolds and a swamp drake (this might have been DM creation). I was knocked out in the first round by a bad save on the swamp drake's acid breath attack. The fighters took down the drake quickly, and the a bow fighter and cleric took out a couple of kobolds, so when I was revived, I realized there were only 2 more kobolds left. Instead of trying to hide or sneak, or climb the tower to attempt to get around the back of the foes, or even drop down on top of them, I decided to stand up and use my sling to attack one of the kobolds. I even said, "since they are only kobolds and this is going to be over soon, I won't waste time doing anything but firing my sling." I enjoyed my tiny bit of play experience, and I realize that this was just a short encounter to get our feet wet, but looking back, it does emphasize how shorter combats really are not as tactically rich as longer combats.
I don't think D&DNext is tactics light, it is just that with shorter combats, it is much less likely that players will engage in tactics. If the monsters were a bit more robust, and average combats lasted a few rounds longer, we could use more tactics. D&DNext should support both the quick fight and the longer more tactical battle so we can do both as needed/wanted. I think we will be able to do both by the end of the playtest.
