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Switch to Forum Live View Increasing disparity between monster and player initiative
6 months ago  ::  Dec 07, 2012 - 10:51AM #1
Nazim
Date Joined: Dec 29, 2007
Posts: 36
This thread is inspired by those that have noticed the difference between monster defenses and PC attack bonuses. There is a similar pattern with respect to initiative. As the PCs grow in level, the difference between an appropriate level monster's initiative bonus and an average PC's initiative bonus increases pretty drammatically. The basis of my thesis is this pulled-out-of-my-rear chart. The columns I focus on are the second and third ones from the right. Ignore the fact that I left a cell selected when I took the screenshot.




Level: the level of the character or monster.


Monster Init: average initiative of a monster of that level. I must confess that I grabbed these numbers by simply looking at the initiatives of a lot of post-MM3 monsters in the compendium, so there could be sampling issues. Also, while lower level monsters have a plus or minus two variation, higher level monsters have a lot more range in their variation. Despite all this, these numbers are in line with the ones that I've seen here


Primary Init: this is the initiative bonus of a character whose primary ability score yields an initiative bonus. For example, a Thief or a Deva with Battle Intuition and Wisdom as his or her principal ability score. This assumes that the ability starts at 18, is raised at every opportunity, and that the epic destiny also raises it by two. No other bonuses (such as feat or item bonuses) have been added into this score.
Delta: the difference between the two colums to the left.
Delta for L+2: the difference between the initiative of a monster of level +2 and the Primary Init score of the same level. I added this info because it seems that this is often a normal encounter.


Normal Init: this is the initiative bonus of a character who, at creation, has a 12 in the ability that yields an initiative bonus. There is considerable variation here, and while it could be a point or two higher, it could also be a point or two lower. This only increased at levels 11 and 21, and therfore the bonus increases at level 21.
Delta: the difference between Monster Init and Normal Init.
Delta for L+2: the difference between Monster Init two levels above the Normal Init.


Feat+Item: the bonus to initiative granted by taking Improved Initiative (+4 feat bonus) at level 4, retraining it to Superior Initiative (+8 feat bonus) at level 22, and donning a tier-appropriate Casque of Tactics (+1/2/3 item bonus) at levels 6, 16, and 26.

The conclusion I draw from the numbers above is that a character who does not invest in his or her initiative will, at higher levels, almost always lose initiative.  While I can agree that such a character should be penalized to some extent, a ten or twelve point difference, on average, is too much. And forcing a character to invest a feat or a head-slot item to remedy this seems, to me, coercive. In other words, if I don't have an ability score that contributes to the initiative as a primary attribute, I am forced to spend a feat and a head slot item to remain competitive. 

This is not as big a problem as the attack vs defense disparity. But it's a real enough issue to players who want to build mechanically-sound characters. For example, almost every character optimizer takes the feats and has an item bonus to initiative or has some gambit to optimize initiative. 

The solution is to allow characters to add their highest bonus to initiative instead of dex, and apply a penalty to it if it is not dex. This should allow it to scale properly throughout a character's career. What do folks think about this?

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6 months ago  ::  Dec 07, 2012 - 11:24AM #2
Style75
Date Joined: Oct 25, 2009
Posts: 1,957
I run a regular epic tier campaign and I can assure that in reality this is not a problem at all. The PC's are so incredibly super powered compared to monsters that it can be very difficult for DM's to challenge them at all. A slight edge in initiative for the monsters is good because it's one way to increase challenge without messing with the mechanics too much. Giving the PC's any increase in power at epic tier is just not necessary and only makes the DM's job harder.
 
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6 months ago  ::  Dec 07, 2012 - 12:11PM #3
Seeker95
  • Reasonably Disagreeable
Date Joined: Oct 24, 2001
Posts: 9,933
The reality in practice proves to be quite the opposite, as the party tends to benefit from group-improving initiative impacts like that often granted by a Taclord. In my current campaign (Paragon level) the PCs all get +7 to initiaitve over and above their own level-based benefits.

The only way I (the DM) end up "getting to go first" is to manage a surprise round every now and then.
Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion:
  • Three Basic Rules (p 11)
  • Power Types and Usage (p 54)
  • Skills (p178-179)
  • Feats (p 192)
  • Rest and Recovery (p 263)
  • All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)

A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.
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6 months ago  ::  Dec 07, 2012 - 12:11PM #4
FLAvatar
Date Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1,049
Style75 nailed it.

Winning initiative is very often the only way a critter on Team Monster is guaranteed a turn at all in epic tier.
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6 months ago  ::  Dec 07, 2012 - 12:36PM #5
Nazim
Date Joined: Dec 29, 2007
Posts: 36
Taclords do grant a huge bonus, but not every part has one, and there aren't many other ways to keep up with initiative. 

Also, the fact that PCs overwhelm monsters at epic level seems only mildly relevant. If that's the case, the DM needs to put more monsters on the board. Or more elite or solo monsters.

Finally, these are almost exactly the points that were made when the expertise "corrections" came out. Yet most people use them at this point.
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6 months ago  ::  Dec 07, 2012 - 12:40PM #6
mexrage
Date Joined: Nov 30, 2010
Posts: 1,497
My party is level 15, i have to throw 1.25 standard per PC to make it a challenge, and i have to use more recent monster stat or buff monsters to that level of challenge too.  with creatures MM3, Monster Vault & Threats of Nethir Vale can challenge them on a 8 standard budget vs 6 PC at this level...thought to be fair...my party are players that know the game alot, they don't min/max, but they do make pretty powerful characters and most important overall...they do ALOT of teamwork and party synergy, wish is where the true power of PCs on 4e came from.
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6 months ago  ::  Dec 07, 2012 - 12:42PM #7
Seeker95
  • Reasonably Disagreeable
Date Joined: Oct 24, 2001
Posts: 9,933

Dec 7, 2012 -- 12:36PM, Nazim wrote:

Finally, these are almost exactly the points that were made when the expertise "corrections" came out. Yet most people use them at this point.


Of course people use them. They're there. Leaving free bonuses on the table is not the norm (for Boards-active players, anyway).

However, although there were plenty of people who chimed in when the Boards mathematicians noted the to-hit disparities, very few found the disparity to be evident at the table until they were told about it.

Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion:
  • Three Basic Rules (p 11)
  • Power Types and Usage (p 54)
  • Skills (p178-179)
  • Feats (p 192)
  • Rest and Recovery (p 263)
  • All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)

A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.
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6 months ago  ::  Dec 07, 2012 - 3:49PM #8
mvincent
Date Joined: Jun 15, 2004
Posts: 8,283

Dec 7, 2012 -- 10:51AM, Nazim wrote:

The conclusion I draw from the numbers above is that a character who does not invest in his or her initiative will, at higher levels, almost always lose initiative.


fwiw: In every one of my paragon and epic campaigns, the PCs always had ridiculously higher initiative than their opponents. It was only in heroic games that the monsters had much chance to go first.

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6 months ago  ::  Dec 07, 2012 - 8:34PM #9
Nazim
Date Joined: Dec 29, 2007
Posts: 36
I would love to read of builds that, without taclords, feat bonuses or item bonuses, dominate initiative at paragon levels.

EDIT: I'm focusing on builds whose primary ability does not contribute to initiative. 
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6 months ago  ::  Dec 07, 2012 - 9:35PM #10
Chris24601
Date Joined: Jul 17, 2003
Posts: 540
We've got a high Dex Ranger in our paragon tier party (level 16) and between their Dex (+6), their level (+8), Improved Initiative (+4), a theme (+2), some helm I forget the name of (+2 item bonus) and danger sense (which allows you to roll twice for initative and use the better result) gave them a +22 (roll twice) to initiative. They ALWAYS went first (they lowest I ever saw them get was a 34, higher than most of our foes could get even with a natural 20 on their initiative die).

The rest of our party is pretty much in the +11-13 range with a lazylord (emphasis on the lazy... its his thing) at +7 (+8 level, -1 Dex modifier) who makes a point of actually delaying if he should actually somehow beat someone else's initiative.
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