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6 months ago ::
Dec 07, 2012 - 1:55PM
#31
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Date Joined:
Aug 18, 2007
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When it comes to money, logic dictates appealing to all their fanbase makes more money than appealing to half the fanbase and telling the other half to go **** off.
Right. If they wouldn't have done that with the radical changes brought on in 2008 we wouldn't even be in this mess.
CAMRA preserves and protects real ale from the homogenization of modern beer production.
D&D Grognards are the CAMRA of D&D!
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6 months ago ::
Dec 07, 2012 - 2:13PM
#32
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Date Joined:
May 24, 2012
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I was under the impression that parts of The Sundering would be written as adventures for 4th Edition.
I don't consider "tactical D&D" and 4th Edition to be one and the same, honestly. While 4E is one of my least favorite Editions, I desire tactical D&D. I just consider tactics to be more than gridded combat, forced movement, status effects, group Feats, and knocking prone. I consider tactics to be a discussion between players about how to best approach a situation and how each character might help bring that outcome about. I consider tactics to include characters helping other characters achieve those goals in the ever changing chaos of an Encounter. To me, tactics are more of a factor of roleplaying than of ruleset.
+1
If it is a module tailored for 4e fans, 'Grid Module' seems to fit better. D&D tactics have been around for decades.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 07, 2012 - 2:31PM
#33
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When it comes to money, logic dictates appealing to all their fanbase makes more money than appealing to half the fanbase and telling the other half to go **** off.
Right. If they wouldn't have done that with the radical changes brought on in 2008 we wouldn't even be in this mess.
Genie is out of the bottle on that one. Now they have to please two groups, not one.
...whatever
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6 months ago ::
Dec 07, 2012 - 2:56PM
#34
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Date Joined:
May 24, 2012
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Six groups
ODD
1E
2E
3E
4E
New players
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6 months ago ::
Dec 07, 2012 - 2:57PM
#35
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Date Joined:
Aug 18, 2007
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When it comes to money, logic dictates appealing to all their fanbase makes more money than appealing to half the fanbase and telling the other half to go **** off.
Right. If they wouldn't have done that with the radical changes brought on in 2008 we wouldn't even be in this mess.
Genie is out of the bottle on that one. Now they have to please two groups, not one.
I quite agree.
CAMRA preserves and protects real ale from the homogenization of modern beer production.
D&D Grognards are the CAMRA of D&D!
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6 months ago ::
Dec 07, 2012 - 4:54PM
#36
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2011
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When it comes to money, logic dictates appealing to all their fanbase makes more money than appealing to half the fanbase and telling the other half to go **** off.
Right. If they wouldn't have done that with the radical changes brought on in 2008 we wouldn't even be in this mess.
Not to mention with the massive ****storm that 4e got from it supposedly throwing former fans under the bus(note:I hadn't started playing 4e until long after that, so I wouldn't know what went on at that time), you'd think WoTC would want to avoid a similar fiasco.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 07, 2012 - 5:10PM
#37
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2012
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Except if they want to egt the biggets fanbase possible, they are going to have to cater to as many people as they can, and the 4e fambase, regardless of whether it's the majority or not, is still big enough where telling them their ideas have no place in 5e will likely result in it's demise.
Oh I'll grant that they'd like everyone to keep buying their product. I'm just not convinced that anyone actually believes they will and so they're guaging what they consider to be acceptable losses. It's just a lot easier to spin it like so rather than to actually do it like so. And I have no faith whatsoever in what anyone says to me when their motive is to sell me something. If they thought it'd get them customers they would go ahead and say virtually anything at all. Maybe Mearls and the guys actually designing the thing have integrity and are actually trying to make this crazy claim come true but I have serious doubts that their marketing people give a damn. I also think there will be an honest attempt to allow for most playstyles to exist in the game system. I just don't think it's possible to unify a fractous group of people who are very much emotionally attached to their drug of choice.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 07, 2012 - 5:56PM
#38
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Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2001
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Six groups
ODD
1E
2E
3E
4E
New players
The first 3 are pretty nearly interchangeable. You have fans of classic D&D: 0D&D, BECMI, 1e/2e - game so similar you'd have to watch a group very closely to tell which they're running, and generally more similar to eachother than the campaigns of any two games running AD&D were likely to be. Then you have modern D&Ders, /sharply/ divided by the irrational hatred and enduring spite of the 3.5 holdouts who started the edition war. So that's 3 camps. And, of course, the almost-always-overlooked new players, whom WotC has prettymuch explicitly written off when they evisioned 5e as D&D for everyone who's ever played D&D. Clearly, with 4e 'failed' the 4e camp is out, and, just as clearly, new players don't matter. So, for 5e, it's prettymuch just a matter of classic D&D and 3.5/Pathfinder fans hammering out their differences.
Thing is, apart from being unified in their hatred of 4e, they have very little in common. Classic D&D was a vague, DM-driven system that no two groups played the same way, while 3.x enshrines the "RAW" as holy writ and is extremely player-centric. Both hate 4e for being balanced, but each wants D&D broken in a very different way. Classic D&Ders want a system so broken only DM intervention can fix it, which is "DM empowering," while 3.5 fans want an iron-clad 'RAW' with designed-in rewards for system mastery that are "player empowering."
The noise coming from WotC has certainly been coming down on the side of "DM empowerment" - the D&D of classic-D&Ders - so far, but the playtest is drifting more and more towards 3e...
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? Join the Old Guard of 4e"You want The Tooth? You can't handle The Tooth!" - Dahlver-Nar. "If magic is unrestrained in the campaign, D&D quickly degenerates into a weird wizard show where players get bored quickly" - E. Gary Gygax
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6 months ago ::
Dec 07, 2012 - 6:17PM
#39
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Six groups
ODD
1E
2E
3E
4E
New players
The first 3 are pretty nearly interchangeable. You have fans of classic D&D: 0D&D, BECMI, 1e/2e - game so similar you'd have to watch a group very closely to tell which they're running, and generally more similar to eachother than the campaigns of any two games running AD&D were likely to be. Then you have modern D&Ders, /sharply/ divided by the irrational hatred and enduring spite of the 3.5 holdouts who started the edition war. So that's 3 camps. And, of course, the almost-always-overlooked new players, whom WotC has prettymuch explicitly written off when they evisioned 5e as D&D for everyone who's ever played D&D. Clearly, with 4e 'failed' the 4e camp is out, and, just as clearly, new players don't matter. So, for 5e, it's prettymuch just a matter of classic D&D and 3.5/Pathfinder fans hammering out their differences.
Thing is, apart from being unified in their hatred of 4e, they have very little in common. Classic D&D was a vague, DM-driven system that no two groups played the same way, while 3.x enshrines the "RAW" as holy writ and is extremely player-centric. Both hate 4e for being balanced, but each wants D&D broken in a very different way. Classic D&Ders want a system so broken only DM intervention can fix it, which is "DM empowering," while 3.5 fans want an iron-clad 'RAW' with designed-in rewards for system mastery that are "player empowering."
The noise coming from WotC has certainly been coming down on the side of "DM empowerment" - the D&D of classic-D&Ders - so far, but the playtest is drifting more and more towards 3e...
I don't think they've written off 4E players or new players. I think they're just clueless and stupid.
I think everything else you just said is spot on.
...whatever
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6 months ago ::
Dec 07, 2012 - 7:13PM
#40
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2008
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I don't think they've written off 4E players or new players. I think they're just clueless and stupid.
Just curious...why would you say something like this?
I realize that the anonymity of the internet grants people license to say things to people that they would typically never say in face to face situations (unless you're a title-carrying MMA fighter, that is), but when it comes down to insults at such a personal level, what is it you hope to accomplish?
In fond memory of Mark "Wrecan" Monack.
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