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Dec 8, 2012 -- 12:54AM, Zathris wrote:

The wordings are different enough to be important. The most complete explanation is to start with how Hybrids and Implement Powers work. You can wield the implements of both classes, and you can use implement powers from either class (and PPs, Themes, Feats, Power Swaps, etc.) through the implements of either class. So you can use Bard Implements (wands) and Warlock Implements (rods and wands) for all of your Implement Powers.

That's the General Rule. Specific beats General, so lets look at the Pact Blade and Songblade as "specific" rules sources.
Pact Blade: "If you are an eladrin, this longsword functions as a warlock implement for you." This clearly adds itself as a subset to "Warlock Implements" which means you can use it for all of your Implement Powers.
Songblade: "Bards can use this weapon as an implement for bard powers and bard paragon path powers." This clearly indicates that it can be used by Bards as for Bard Powers. Since it doesn't make it a "Bard Implement" it doesn't become available for your Warlock (or any non-Bard/Bard PP) Powers.
So Pact Blade would be the way to go between the two of them.

Zathris.  Thanks for this explanation.  I've also wondered how the implement rules work for say a shaman|wizard wielding alfsair spear...  It has the following verbage: "Classes that use totems can use this spear as an implement for class powers and paragon path powers."  Now a hybrid wizard (or shaman MC wizard) CAN use totems for its wizard powers, based on the general rule.  But the base wizard class cannot.  Which case is it for an alfsair spear wielder?

Dec 8, 2012 -- 2:32AM, Zathris wrote:

here it is strait from PHB3 "if you have at least two powers in the same category (at-will attack, encounter attack, daily attack, or utility), at least one of those powers must come from each of your hybrid classes."

RC states a similar idea under SWAPPING POWERS side bar (p90):
"Some game features, particularly feats, give you the option of swapping one of your adventurer's powers for a different power.  This option provides a way to customize your adventurer and to experiment with different abilities.
   You might be given the option of swapping a class power that is not from your character's class.  You cannot make the swap if doing so would eliminate your character's last class power of a particular type: utility power, at-will attack power, encounter attack power, or daily attack power.  For instance, if your wizard has only one wizard utility power, you cannot swap that power for a nonwizard power.  Unless insturcted otherwise, you cannot replace powers that your character gained from a paragon path or an epic destiny."  

Which raises this question.  Why are there even level 2 character character theme powers, level 2 racial utility powers, or level 2 skill powers if you cannot swap them at level 2?  Believe CB has allowed such swaps (yes, not a rules source), but is there some other specific rule that permits such swaps on a same level basis?

Dec 8, 2012 -- 5:28AM, rczarnec wrote:

Dec 8, 2012 -- 4:55AM, Dzance wrote:

 Which raises this question.  Why are there even level 2 character character theme powers, level 2 racial utility powers, or level 2 skill powers if you cannot swap them at level 2?  Believe CB has allowed such swaps (yes, not a rules source), but is there some other specific rule that permits such swaps on a same level basis?

Non-hybrids can take them at level 2. The restrictions are for hybrids.

Hybrids could retrain into a level 2 utility after they hit level 10 as long as after the retrain they still have at least one utility from each base class.

Actually, I believe the rule is now that you must always have a power from the base class if you can have one - I remember looking this up for my resourceful magician bard at one point and being annoyed to have found the rule. I suspect that some R&D people haven't made the connection about level 2 utilities.