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Switch to Forum Live View How Do You Like Your Races?
6 months ago  ::  Dec 03, 2012 - 6:20PM #1
Zardnaar
Date Joined: Apr 15, 2001
Posts: 8,249

 The Races in D&DN kind of suck. Humans are overpowered and everything else is kinda boring and shoehorned into various classes due to things like the racial weapon use (bigger dice of damage via racial weapons). 3.5, 4th ed, Pathfinder and even 3.0 all had more interesting races than the current batch.

 Personally I like the +2/+2/-2 format for ability scores that Pathfinder uses. 4th ed used +2/+2 which is also fine but it did make humans suck a bit at least until more splats were released. Humans are also overpowered in Pathfinder and probably 3.5 and they sucked in 2nd ed. I did like the floating ability scores introduced in 4th ed. Putting it togather in my personal game for example using the Elf I use these stats.

+2 Dex, +2 Int or Dex, -2 Con.

 Not sure how one could balance out a human if it was 4th ed style race with no negative. +2 to two ability scores of your choice would be crazy good.

 Star Wars Saga had a nice mix in Races in terms of ability scores. Some reaces got +4 even in one score instead of +2/+2. Some races were over powered and underpowered due to other abilites.

 Encounter powers for races in 4th ed were fine, almost required for Dragonborn and using the old Elf again for example Elven Accuracy was better than say the 3.5 Elf and D&DN as it was a neutral racial ability usable with all classes. I also liked racial feats making certain races better with iconic weapons as oppesed to baking it into the base stats. They tried that in 3.5 but the Dwarf made a better wizard than the Elf.

 In summary I like.

+2/+2/-2 For stats, not to worried if negatives are thrown out though- not worth getting upset about. One of the +2 is "floating" as well.

Somewhat class neutral racial abilites. An elven wizard in 2nd ed for example didn't get much from +1 to hit with swords and bows, same deal with D&DN races (ergo pick a human).

Racial powers. Not to worried either way. I would like to see them there for some races, and I would prefer some over the current setup. Some were better than others in 4th ed though.

 ANyway what do you want/expect form the races?
Reducing a character to a list of dice rolls and modifiers is not role playing*

*pg 30, AD&D 2nd Ed DMG, 1989.
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6 months ago  ::  Dec 03, 2012 - 6:28PM #2
arderkrag
Date Joined: Jul 18, 2007
Posts: 3,875

How Do You Like Your Races?


Fast, and with lots of turns. But screw F1, it's boring. The drivers are too careful.

Seriously, though, I like the PF treatment of races. I'm not really in agreement with the overpowered humans line - I'm assuming you're basing that on the extra feat.

The Faerytale will be told. The only question is - will you play a part?
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6 months ago  ::  Dec 03, 2012 - 6:36PM #3
Zardnaar
Date Joined: Apr 15, 2001
Posts: 8,249
Extra feat and choice of +2 to any ability score you like make the PF very good. The 3.5 human was a popular choice mechanically, PF added a +2 to any score of your choice. I rewrote the PF races and ported some 4th ed racial feats to PF in an effort to bribe people to play other races.

Overpowered IMHO in PF and weak in 4th ed due to secondary riders. Human got better as 4th ed went along though with its essentials era racial power and adding more at wills to the game as that ability was kind of weak in the PHB era 4th ed.
Reducing a character to a list of dice rolls and modifiers is not role playing*

*pg 30, AD&D 2nd Ed DMG, 1989.
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6 months ago  ::  Dec 03, 2012 - 6:42PM #4
arderkrag
Date Joined: Jul 18, 2007
Posts: 3,875
Meh. I play with some serious number crunchers and very few of them have ever preferred humans. We usually pick races to fit a concept.
The Faerytale will be told. The only question is - will you play a part?
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6 months ago  ::  Dec 03, 2012 - 6:43PM #5
Crimson_Concerto
Date Joined: Aug 28, 2005
Posts: 9,919
Like this.

No penalties, no pigeon holing, nothing culture-related, and plenty of optional features to suit every style of play, from encounter powers even to specific weapon bonuses or culturally evocative options as long as they can be exchanged for something else. 4E got the bonuses right, and Pathfinder did racial feature options superbly.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM

Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask?
"If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB
"If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave
"WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm
"Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha

Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further.

Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
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6 months ago  ::  Dec 03, 2012 - 6:48PM #6
penandpaper2
Date Joined: Jul 2, 2008
Posts: 1,143
I like my races without attribute modifiers.  For all the talk on these forums about people wanting to be able to build their style of character, to have options, to negate walls; I see no reason why anyone of those people would support attribute modifiers.  All it does is pigeon-hole.
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6 months ago  ::  Dec 03, 2012 - 6:50PM #7
Zeldafan42
Date Joined: Sep 25, 2008
Posts: 385
I actually like race design in D&DN. Weapon traits I treat like a freebie: everyone gets one (except humans, but that's a different problem), so I disregard them for the sake of balance. Are they usually better for martial characters than casters? Well, sure, but since every non-human race gets one, I usually disregard them when building characters unless they're relevant to my class.

I also hate racial ability score penalties. Because while you complain about weapon familiarity shoehorning races into certain classes, racial ability score penalties do it far worse. Elves getting a penalty to Con pretty much locks the race out of excelling at any Con based class. Dwarves with a Cha penalty? Then dwarves will always make subpar bards and sorcerers. I hate that.

One of the things I liked about 4E was the idea that every race/class combination should be playable. They won't all be optimal, but they should all be able to contribute meaningfully to the party. Now, obviously, 4E failed to deliver on this promise with some races, like the poor Minotaur and it's melee/charging dependent racial traits. But the idea was there in the beginning, and I'd like to see that philosophy brought back for D&DN.

Because some of my favourite characters I've ever played are non-standard race/class combinations. I want to be able to play my Dwarven Rogues or Half-Orc Sorcerers. And the one thing that you can do that punishes those unique combinations more than anything else is ability score penalties.

That said, I'll also say that I like the current model of "+1 to a stat from Race, +1 to a stat from Class" because it puts less pressure on the player to pick a race with an optimal ability bonus, since they know they can also boost their primary stat with their class choice.

And humans.....well, humans are a colossal mess that really need fixing. I'd be fine with them getting a floating +2 to represent their adaptability, but ditch the +1 to everything else and give us some actual racial traits please.
D&D Experience Level: Relatively new
First Edition: 4th
Known Editions: 4th, 3.5
---
Magic Experience Level: Fairly skilled
First Expansion: 7th Edition
Play Style: Very Casual
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6 months ago  ::  Dec 03, 2012 - 6:53PM #8
Crimson_Concerto
Date Joined: Aug 28, 2005
Posts: 9,919

Dec 3, 2012 -- 6:48PM, penandpaper2 wrote:

For all the talk on these forums about people wanting to be able to build their style of character, to have options, to negate walls; I see no reason why anyone of those people would support attribute modifiers.  All it does is pigeon-hole.


Not if you have one of these!

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM

Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask?
"If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB
"If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave
"WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm
"Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha

Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further.

Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
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6 months ago  ::  Dec 03, 2012 - 6:53PM #9
rampant
Date Joined: Oct 26, 2004
Posts: 7,983
For humans I'd like to see more actual abilities, less bonus ability scores, feats, and skills, things like being able to use the help action as a minor action (which this games needs to implement, desperately) or a WYTAA action, once per encounter. Some of the old style bonus feats and such can be in there I just think humans tend to have certain distinct aspects beyond just being the middlegrounders.

 For everyone else I gotta go with Zardnaar, except for the ability score penalty thing, if we have to have somethign along those lines though someone came up with an idea a while back that i like: 1st level maximums. Essentially a first level elf cannot place anything higher than a 16 in con, if he places a higher rolled or array stat in con the score drops to 16 and the difference is added to his lowest ability score, if using point buy the elf player cannot purchase past a 16 in con at first level.
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6 months ago  ::  Dec 03, 2012 - 6:56PM #10
Zardnaar
Date Joined: Apr 15, 2001
Posts: 8,249
The +2 thing in D&DN still makes the human a better choice than the other races in all classes including the ones where XYZ Demihuman gets bonus damage out of a weapon. For classes that do not use a wepaon the human is the no brainer choice form a mechanical PoV.

-2 con may hurt Elves in previous verisons of the game. Right now in effect non humans get -1 to everything. On les hit point per level via a con penalty isn't that big a deal for most classes even frontline fighters. For D&DN all races should probably have a +2 somehting, ditch the +1 humans get on everything else and give them something else to compensate. The that increased damage dice will actually matter.

 4th Ed +2/+2 also pigeonholed races just in a different way and made humans either suck or be sub optiaml mechanically for most of 4th ed existence as they are outclassed by every other race in most classes. No edition really got it 100% right.
Reducing a character to a list of dice rolls and modifiers is not role playing*

*pg 30, AD&D 2nd Ed DMG, 1989.
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