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Switch to Forum Live View Legends & Lore: Class Design Concepts
7 months ago  ::  Dec 03, 2012 - 12:13AM #21
pauln6
  • Stampeding Hybrid
Date Joined: Jan 21, 2004
Posts: 2,358
Some interesting ideas.  I I like lumping healing and curing spells under a separate positive energy umbrella as an alternative to ritualising them.

The change to the wizard looks interesting but if they are increasng slots I hope they go back to their original idea that scrolls use up one of your spell slots so they just add more versatility.
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7 months ago  ::  Dec 03, 2012 - 12:18AM #22
Orzel
Date Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Posts: 3,368
Just reallized it

Wizards are now FF1 black mages
Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds.

Constitution Based Class for Next!
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7 months ago  ::  Dec 03, 2012 - 12:20AM #23
Mand12
Date Joined: Jun 17, 2010
Posts: 17,319
Always should have been, in my opinion...
D&D Next = D&D:  Quantum Edition
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7 months ago  ::  Dec 03, 2012 - 12:27AM #24
abanathie
Date Joined: Feb 24, 2008
Posts: 1,078
Rogues:  They need something.  I think that weaponized skill checks is generally in keeping with the class.  Alot of skill monkeys at my past tables were all about utilizing skills in combat.  Forgoing advantage for damage as part of sneak attack is not bad idea.  It can be balanced against other classes.  I don't have a problem with it.  I like the idea of tricks; however, I'm worried at no mention of skill mastery.  That mechanic, in my opinion, is just broken and unbalancing.

Spellcasting:  I like the idea of at-wills that scale.  It's necessary to a degree to keep up with combat in general.  I do agree that they need to be divorced from the spell slots for balancing purposes.  Removing the gold cost from rituals is a good idea.  I think that time and space should be a primary cost of rituals.  A rogue that can pick a lock in a minute is much more useful of a skill than a wizard that needs a certain amount of space and 30 minutes to cast a knock ritual. 

Clerics:  I can't form a good opinion without looking at the actual class; however, the general concepts seem to be good.  However, how does WotC plan on addressing "evil" clerics?  Do the bad guys (or good guys that worship the bad guys) channel positive energy?  Is there going to be an option for channelling negative energy?  That's a big question that needs answering in my opinion.  I do like the idea of variable armor and weapon proficiencies based on domain.  I don't think the diety idea is all that great.  A priest of Pelor could be a Lifegiver, Lightbringer or Warbringer (although I'll admit this one can be a bit of a stretch).  Domains work better in that regard in my opinion; although that system also has some limitations.  I think that the current diety system should be renamed domains (I guess aspect is fine), and actual distribution of domains to dieties left up to the DM, at least in the core rules.

Wizards:  I like the idea of at-wills.  I don't like the sorceror-like mechanic.  I do agree that the wizard needs more slots to matter.  I'm actually more interested in seeing how spells are going to be balanced within the game mechanics.  The Knock description for a previous posting is a poor design in my opinion.  However, forcing a skill check as part of the spell isn't that bad.

Fighter:  I don't know.  I look at the fighter with parry as being better at damage mitigation than a cleric.  He can sustain it longer and is comparable to a cleric.  I'm not sure if that is the greatest idea in the world...  I guess we'll see...        
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7 months ago  ::  Dec 03, 2012 - 3:10AM #25
Gnarl
Date Joined: Dec 2, 2002
Posts: 1,489
Non-vancian wizards and no option for vancian. Now that is super lame.

I guess the designers have to test the concept... I'm going to skip the next packet and wait for the one after I guess.
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7 months ago  ::  Dec 03, 2012 - 3:58AM #26
Mithrus
Date Joined: Jan 29, 2005
Posts: 3,246

Dec 3, 2012 -- 12:18AM, Orzel wrote:

Just reallized it

Wizards are now FF1 black mages


If only they would include White Mages, I'd be even happier. Perhaps the Abjurer would be a suitable tradition to learn healing spells in addition to protective spells? I REALLY don't want to see a single class be the only source of real healing in the game.

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7 months ago  ::  Dec 03, 2012 - 4:02AM #27
JR_Gareth
Date Joined: Jan 18, 2012
Posts: 41
The changes sound good overall. IMO it is important that at-will spell scale less than expertise dice and even then slot spell damaged will have to be watched closely. Although, I do think that scaling at-will damage is a good idea. Hopefully, the monsters will get a retool as well.
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7 months ago  ::  Dec 03, 2012 - 4:04AM #28
Mithrus
Date Joined: Jan 29, 2005
Posts: 3,246

Dec 3, 2012 -- 3:10AM, Gnarl wrote:

Non-vancian wizards and no option for vancian. Now that is super lame.


You could also just enforce a houserule of standard vancian slots and test the packet out that way. Skipping a packet seems like a good way of not letting WotC know anything constructive.

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7 months ago  ::  Dec 03, 2012 - 5:28AM #29
Gnarl
Date Joined: Dec 2, 2002
Posts: 1,489

Dec 3, 2012 -- 4:04AM, Mithrus wrote:

You could also just enforce a houserule of standard vancian slots and test the packet out that way. Skipping a packet seems like a good way of not letting WotC know anything constructive.




I'm still going to read the updated stuff and answer the survey. I'm not going to shut the door for something like this. I just don't feel like playing in a version of Next without my good old vancian wizard. Playtesting something you won't want to play in the end is kind of a waste of time.

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7 months ago  ::  Dec 03, 2012 - 6:10AM #30
JayM
Date Joined: Aug 31, 2007
Posts: 2,247

The biggest piece of feedback we received was that the rogue came across as a lame fighter. This was a key test to see how much tolerance people have for varied combat strength across classes. There's some give, but it looks like people want to avoid dramatic differences.


That is interesting. Putting rules they know probably won't work into the packet to see how far they can push things and see what people like/dislike. This shows that they are really thinking about what they put in the packets and are listening to the results.

The plan right now is to give rogues expertise dice equivalent to the fighter's progression. In addition, our new approach to skills uses bonus dice in place of a static modifier. A rogue can essentially use weaponized ability checks in combat. A rogue might lure an enemy into charging forward, dart into the shadows and disappear in the blink of an eye, distract a creature's attention away from the wizard as he or she prepares to cast a spell, and so forth.


Sounds like a workable idea, though I would guess the exact mechanics are going to take some work to balance out.

Dialing down the damage also allows us to be more liberal in giving you the chance to activate it.


Sounds like they are pushing the rogue further in the direction of a skirmisher rather then a straight striker. Which is fine but it means we are going to need a proper assassin class at some point.

We're making a few changes to spellcasting. First and foremost, casters will receive more slots than the number we were giving in the last packet. In addition, at-will spells will scale in damage and effect to remain relevant at all levels. It's likely that these changes push the signature spell out of the picture, since we don't really need it to pick up the slack anymore.


Sounds like they where listening to what people disliked about the last set of rules and are going in the right direction.

Finally, we will add rules for casting spells while in armor. The rule will simply be that if you are proficient with a type of armor, you can cast spells while wearing it. Otherwise, the armor interferes with your ability to cast.


That might be too good. If armored casting is trivial then wizards are going to be pushed into at least light armor simply because the advantage is too big.

Turn undead will be significantly simplified and will be tied to a pool of healing that a cleric can tap into.


If there are different channeling options by deity then that sounds good. I would like to see deity replaced with just religion or faith, even if the default options are all specific gods, to make adapting to religions that don't follow a specific god more obvious.

The biggest change for wizards is that we are going to separate spell preparation and spellcasting. You can prepare a number of spells, let's say three, for each level you can cast. When you cast a spell, you pick any spell you have prepared and spend the corresponding spell slot to cast it. This mechanic mirrors the flexibility we gave to clerics.


That I don't much like, but if they are going to leave the number of spells cut down I can see why they think it is necessary to give wizards enough options.

The fighter is in good shape. We're likely going to give the fighter a special parry mechanic that doesn't use expertise dice but works much the same way. If anything, the fighter might be a little too good. The feedback pegs the fighter as the most powerful class. The other classes will mostly catch up, but we might reduce expertise dice a little bit at higher levels to keep the game moving quickly.


The fighter specific class ability needs to be more flexible then just Parry or there needs to be a choice of options. Also, if your going to give the fighter Parry for free, the class is going to need whacked back somewhere else because it is already crushingly powerful.

There aren't any huge changes here, but I anticipate that we will soon begin to break up the core rules into basic, standard, and advanced sections so you can begin to get a sense of how we look at the rules and the game's core complexity.


Basic, standard and advanced? I'll be curious to see what is actually going on there.

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