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6 months ago ::
Dec 02, 2012 - 6:47AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Oct 25, 2009
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I'm DM'ing in an epic tier campaign and every member of my group has picked up the feat superior will. This feat gives them a +4 feat bonus to will and the following bonus:
"In addition, if you are dazed or stunned, you can make a saving throw at the start of your turn to end that effect, even if the effect doesn’t normally end on a save."
Something has come up during play that is seriously affecting the power of my monsters. If I've got a monster that does ongoing 25 damage and dazes (save ends both), my players are saying that they should get to make a save at the start of their turn to end this condition. Thus they avoid both the ongoing damage and the daze.
This has come up in the past when I gave a character the "Boots of Free Movement". Here's the features:
Property - Gain a +2 item bonus to saving throws against effects that apply the slowed, immobilized, or restrained condition.
Power Encounter (Minor Action) - Make a saving throw against a slow, immobilize, or restrain effect that a save can end.
Again, they were using the benefit of the boots to end conditions that had a combination slow and some other effect, for example a "slow and ongoing 10 poison damage (save ends both)".
What are the official rules on this? Are my players correct in how this works, or is a combined condition treated as a different condition that is not subject to the benefits of superior will or boots of free movement?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Want to know more about the history of D&D, especially how to play older editions of the game? Check out Crazy Monkey's "Tour through the editions":
http://community.wizards.com/crazymonkey/go/forum/view/133793/225799/Asylum_Play-by-Post
The current edition is BECMI, the most popular form of Basic D&D and the adventure is the classic Red Box quest to kill Bargle the evil magic user. Check it out, learn about the games roots, and enjoy the story as it unfolds.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 02, 2012 - 7:22AM
#2
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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Daze or Slow + Ongoing 10 damage are still Slow or Daze effects.
If the Daze condition is part of some other effects (save end both) and it saves at the start of its turn, it will end both conditions. Since a creature decide the roder at which things happen during this phase, it is thus possible for it to save before taking any Ongoing damage.
Similarly, if a save is granted with a bonus that apply against an effect that slow, immobilized, or restrained, any effect that apply it as part of the effects (save end both) will get to make a save against it and receive said bonus because it qualify for it.
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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6 months ago ::
Dec 02, 2012 - 10:04AM
#3
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What Plaguescarred said.
Think of it this way. You're looking at a black-and-red checkerboard. Someone asks "Is it red?" The answer is yes. The fact that it is also black doesn't matter.
Same theory applies. If you have a bonus to saving throws against Daze, and you're under 'Ongoing 10 + Daze', you get the bonus. The effect Dazes you; the fact that it also damages you doesn't matter.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 02, 2012 - 10:48AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Oct 25, 2009
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Good to know, thanks for the input.
This makes many monster powers that used "save ends all" type combinations a lot less effective. For my rank and file monsters I'll leave it the way it is, but I think for my really nasty monsters I'll be splitting up the conditions and give each one a separate save effect. At level 26 it's very hard to challenge the PC's so I'm okay making it tougher on them whereever possible.
Want to know more about the history of D&D, especially how to play older editions of the game? Check out Crazy Monkey's "Tour through the editions":
http://community.wizards.com/crazymonkey/go/forum/view/133793/225799/Asylum_Play-by-Post
The current edition is BECMI, the most popular form of Basic D&D and the adventure is the classic Red Box quest to kill Bargle the evil magic user. Check it out, learn about the games roots, and enjoy the story as it unfolds.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 02, 2012 - 1:16PM
#5
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You can always change it into 2 effects if you feel the creatures are getting nerfed too much.
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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 02, 2012 - 2:12PM
#6
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Good to know, thanks for the input.
This makes many monster powers that used "save ends all" type combinations a lot less effective. For my rank and file monsters I'll leave it the way it is, but I think for my really nasty monsters I'll be splitting up the conditions and give each one a separate save effect. At level 26 it's very hard to challenge the PC's so I'm okay making it tougher on them whereever possible.
Are you using MM3 damage/defense values on all your monsters? You are straining party resources by forcing them into 7+ encounter work days? Are you doing tiered encounters, where say in rounds 3, 4, and 5 reinforcements show up (that should be after they have blown APs and novas). Do you have encounters with non-combat objectives (disable the MacGuffin) that eat up their standard actions?
I've DMed a lot of Epic in 4e. Including ridiculous stuff like pre-errata Feychargers. My players always felt challenged.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 02, 2012 - 3:52PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Oct 25, 2009
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Good to know, thanks for the input.
This makes many monster powers that used "save ends all" type combinations a lot less effective. For my rank and file monsters I'll leave it the way it is, but I think for my really nasty monsters I'll be splitting up the conditions and give each one a separate save effect. At level 26 it's very hard to challenge the PC's so I'm okay making it tougher on them whereever possible.
Are you using MM3 damage/defense values on all your monsters? You are straining party resources by forcing them into 7+ encounter work days? Are you doing tiered encounters, where say in rounds 3, 4, and 5 reinforcements show up (that should be after they have blown APs and novas). Do you have encounters with non-combat objectives (disable the MacGuffin) that eat up their standard actions?
I've DMed a lot of Epic in 4e. Including ridiculous stuff like pre-errata Feychargers. My players always felt challenged.
I'm doing all that and more. They take it as a point of pride that they can usually clear my huge dungeons without taking an extended rest. I also routinely use damage values that are considerably higher than even post-MM3 levels. This party has been together since level 1 and they know how to play the game inside out and backwards. They're not total min-maxers, but rather work together extremely well as a team and have a very good grasp of tactics. I'm constantly amazed at the insane amount of threat I can throw at them and they always find a way to survive. Epic tier is a lot of fun, but it does require the DM to be extremely creative.
Want to know more about the history of D&D, especially how to play older editions of the game? Check out Crazy Monkey's "Tour through the editions":
http://community.wizards.com/crazymonkey/go/forum/view/133793/225799/Asylum_Play-by-Post
The current edition is BECMI, the most popular form of Basic D&D and the adventure is the classic Red Box quest to kill Bargle the evil magic user. Check it out, learn about the games roots, and enjoy the story as it unfolds.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 02, 2012 - 3:54PM
#8
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Good to know, thanks for the input.
This makes many monster powers that used "save ends all" type combinations a lot less effective. For my rank and file monsters I'll leave it the way it is, but I think for my really nasty monsters I'll be splitting up the conditions and give each one a separate save effect. At level 26 it's very hard to challenge the PC's so I'm okay making it tougher on them whereever possible.
Are you using MM3 damage/defense values on all your monsters? You are straining party resources by forcing them into 7+ encounter work days? Are you doing tiered encounters, where say in rounds 3, 4, and 5 reinforcements show up (that should be after they have blown APs and novas). Do you have encounters with non-combat objectives (disable the MacGuffin) that eat up their standard actions?
I've DMed a lot of Epic in 4e. Including ridiculous stuff like pre-errata Feychargers. My players always felt challenged.
I'm doing all that and more. They take it as a point of pride that they can usually clear my huge dungeons without taking an extended rest. I also routinely use damage values that are considerably higher than even post-MM3 levels. This party has been together since level 1 and they know how to play the game inside out and backwards. They're not total min-maxers, but rather work together extremely well as a team and have a very good grasp of tactics. I'm constantly amazed at the insane amount of threat I can throw at them and they always find a way to survive. Epic tier is a lot of fun, but it does require the DM to be extremely creative.
I wish I had your players. I risked a TPK with a level-1 encounter with my group ...
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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