I absolutely agree that in a setting where there are Wu Jen the scrolls will be of the same rarity as a Druid's Scrolls. But that is a setting where there are actually Wu Jen around.
For example, in the Middle Ages, in our world, Japan existed. So no doubt a Japanese item could be found during that time, right? So if you were in paris, France you would just need to run down to your local store and.....what they don't carry Japanese merchandize in Paris, France? Perhaps you expected an African Swallow to carry one over?
So your scroll would have the same rarity as a Druid spell, IF YOU WERE IN JAPAN! (or the oreintal hodge podge in D&D)
Perhaps Marco Polo might have some item from the oreint, But that's pretty damn rare isn't it? That's why he is in our history books. He traveled to China and he is a thing of legends a thousand years later.
So if you aren't in the Orient (replacing Wizards and Sorcerors with Wu Jen) these spells should be rare as all get out. Basically unavailable for all intents and purposes.
What I am saying Oma, is that it isn't plausible for you to have that spell outside of a very specific setting where Wu Jen are common. Possible, but not plausible and probably impossible in most games.
+20 UMD item for 40,000, but didn't you start with a Charisma of 8? So I take you have a +6 Cloak of Charisma, that is 36,000 gp, so a total of 76,000 gp in gear to support just being able to use Magic items.
As for the +20 item, as the DMG has +10 items as the maximum, I am very unsure of the acceptability of +20 items.
At the very least the Minimum level to make a +20 skill item is 17, as you need the minimum skill to make the item, exceeding +30 for the Epic isn't a rule for the lower levels since looking at the epic rules shows no real level cap (ie level 50+ characters are possible) At any rate you would need to be a level 27 Character to make a +30 Skill item. So exceeding +30 Skill items would require you to be Level 30+
I wonder if anyone knows if there is more clarification on this?
1- right the standard setting because you can buy scroll sof the wizard class in a town where Wizard dont exist
2- In the Complete Arcane the Class Wu jen is standard not oriental and they exist in all the plane like any other class.
3- As Standard this scroll have the same rarety that a Druid Class because in 3.5 the Wu jen exist in all the plane and not only in the oriental.
4- A NPC with a single SpellCraft of +31 can know the more rare spell in the world and this cost less that 2000 Gps for the info.
5- Under the rules in 3.5 the Skill competence bonus don't need an base CL, the +5 need use CL 3 while the +10 use CL 2 like the elixirs
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma, in Complete Arcana, the Wu Jen can exist, but doesn't always, it is just that optional. A DM could include one, a DM could include it's scrolls in treasure, but this is unlikely unless he has a reason (ie he uses Wu Jen in his setting) whereas Wizards and Sorcerors are common in any setting. Complete Arcane brings them from Oreintal adventures, and makes specific mention that they are "the arcane spellcasters of the Far East" So outside of an oreintal setting they will be rare, your DM can use Complete Arcana without including a particular class (especially if his setting doesn't include the Far East)
Also while Wu Jen from oreintal adventures is in Complete Arcana, the spell, Transend mortality is not, it's in complete mage.
Outside of an oreintal setting a Wu Jen is a rare sight in most games, therefore it would be extremely rare to see scrolls containing their spells. They also don't get Scribe Scroll like wizards do, making their spells even rarer.
Chances of a scroll? Well You won't even get a chance of finding a level 9 scroll until level 12 (1% chance) and even then the chance of a scroll is only 10%, then a 70% chance of an Arcane Scroll, then only a 5% chance of a level 9 scroll, and then a 2% chance of any particular spell, since we are including all spells.
So lets say you get 30 major items in treasure, (thats triple average) You will get 3 rolls for major scrolls, and a 70% chance that they are arcane, so say 2 scrolls and a 10 % chance that one of those is level 9, If one of them is level 9 you will have a roll from a pool of some 30-40 scrolls, lts say 30 so you have a 3% chance of getting your particular spell.
So at level 20 you have a what? 0.3% chance of getting that spell in treasure IF Wu Jen are common in your setting? And that is being extremely Generous and assuming triple treasure and equal availability to Wizards.
Thats just a rough glance at the treasure tables, but I think it illustrates the point that you are unlikely to get this as random treasure.
Basing a class build on the hopes of getting a rare spell that may not even be inluded in 99% of games is a poor build.
5: Under the rules (check out Rings of Jumping and Swiming) to make these items you need to have ranks in the skill equal to the bonus of the item being made. (ie a Ring of Improved Jumping +10 requires you have 10 ranks in jump.) so a +20 Item would require a level 17 character to craft. A 30+ item would be talking about high eic character in their 30s.
Even so, there are no +20 skill items in the game, all existing onces are +10. Not even the Magic Item Compendium has any. I am not sure on the rules here but looking at the existing items, I am inclined to think a +20 Skill item isn't in the rules, and if it is a DM would be advised to treat such an item as an exception to the existing formula (used for +1 to +10 items) and increase the cost accordingly (like Ring of Invisibility) or else not allow it.
It is a custom Item and as such needs DM approval. But this is a subject of a seperate debate. I would not allow it in my game.
It doesn't necessarily need a wu jen for the spell to show up; any 12th-level warlock with Scribe Scroll can crank out rare spells for the adventuring market.
I don't think it's a good idea to always rely on having access to scrolls of a specific spell, but it seems equally arbitrary to deny that any particular kind of scroll should show up. You're almost certainly going to have to buy them yourself if you want a reliable supply (since you're unlikely to make an adventuring career that depends on random scroll loot), but by the time you're a high-level adventurer, you can typically either hunt down uncommon items or simply have them made. A scroll of some particular spell is just a trifle compared to something like a +5 sword or suit of armour with all the trimmings.
As for items, the highest standard bonuses that come to mind are on the greater shadow/silent moves/slick armour enchantments, which grant a +15 competence bonus and follow the standard guidelines (if you include the +50% cost for being on armour instead of a specifically appropriate slot).
The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens
= My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.Show
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. • When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. • When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. • When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. • When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. • When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Aye Slagger I don't deny that they couldn't be there, I am saying that the given rarity outside of the setting makes it unlikely, even given an even number of Wu Jen and Wizards the odds of a specific level 9 spell is such that depending on it is unwise.
Truth be told, as a DM outside of a Wu Jen setting I would not have these spells in the loot unless there was a Wu Jen character in the party, i would be hard pressed to consider adding them to the treasure to appease a UMD fighter since it would effectively be taking useful treasure from others. If the Wu Jen were not in my game setting and no player had a character I would consider them as not being available.
He could buy the spells, and this would be his primary (and only dependable) source for specific spells, But it again comes down to his other skills. Without Knowledge (arcana) he will really only have what's normaly available, ordering customer spells that his character wouldn't have heard of from foriegn lands isn't feasible. And if it was obtainable it would be at a premium.
A Scroll of a particular spell is just a trifle because Wizards are common, Wu Jen aren't common outside of a particular setting. As I said before, buying Japanese merhandize in Paris, France in the early 1200s is improbable at best, impossible in actuality, and this is despite Japan being a real place at the time.
pouring through the books, I can't find any +skill items in the 20s range. Greater Shadow/Silent Moves and Slick take the spells use Invisibility, Silence and Grease. Grease armor should actually be a circumstance modifier, (the spell is a =10 circumstance modifier) Where as just +skill items use the Skill itself (ring of Jumping +10 requires 10 ranks in jumping)
So here we have determined such Items are possible, but it seems that to excede the +10 Limit with skills a Spell is used. When making a +10 Ring of Jumping, You need 10 ranks in jump. There is no +15 or +20 Rings so it stands to reason that 10 ranks of a skill are the max that can be applied, anything higher needs a spell.
So what Spell would you use to make a +20 UMD item? I think if one is going to make a Customer magic item like this, then they need to justify how it is made.
I'd like to see any such item over +10 bonus that uses Skill ranks only.
So what Spell would you use to make a +20 UMD item? I think if one is going to make a Customer magic item like this, then they need to justify how it is made.
I'd like to see any such item over +10 bonus that uses Skill ranks only.
Without poring over the books beyond core, something like Rary's mnemonic enhancer or imbue with spell ability would have credibly appropriate behaviour. Or identify; that's pretty much the go-to spell for understanding how to use items.
The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens
= My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.Show
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. • When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. • When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. • When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. • When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. • When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
A Magic Item can be created using various methods. Regarding granting a Competence bonus to Skill checks, the following methods are used in DMG.
In the case of items like a Ring of Jumping and Ring of Swimming, the Prerequisites require the crafter to have as many ranks in the skill as the item is granting the wearer.
In the case of Armor properties such as Shadow, Silent Moves, and Slick, the prerequisites require a spell that makes sense for the skill being enhanced (Invisibility, Silence, and Grease respectively) and a Caster Level equal to the competance bonus being granted (a +5 bonus requires a CL 5th, a +15 bonus requires a CL15th)
Wonderous items (like Oma's shirt) don't appear to have a set pattern:
*Boots of Elvenkind: +5 to Move Silently; CL 5th, creator must be an elf. *Boots of Striding and Sprinting: +10 speed, +5 to Jump; CL 3rd, Longstrider (for speed enhancement), 5 ranks in Jump skill *Cloak of Elvenkind: +5 to Hide; CL 3rd, Invisibility, creator must be an elf. *Gloves of Swimming and Climbing: +5 to Climb and +5 to Swim; CL 5th, Bull's Strength and Cat's Grace.
Most Wondrous Items in the Magic Item Compendium that give a flat +x bonus to a skill though requires the creator to have at least x ranks in that skill with no additional prerequisites beyond Craft Wondrous Item.
I couldn't find any spells that would make sense as a base (like those used for Gloves of Swimming and Climbing) to grant an item a bonus in Use Magic Device, except possibly Share Talents, a 2nd level spell from PH2.
Using this as a base I'd have the Prerequisites for Oma's shirt be: CL 20th, Craft Wondrous Item, Share Talents, at least 1 rank in Use Magic Device and Decipher Script.
Otherwise the Prerequisites should be: CL 17th, Craft Wondrous Item, Use Magic Device 20 ranks, Decipher Script 12 ranks.
I couldn't find anything limiting the amount of competence bonus allowed to be imbued into an item besides the CL 20th limit for epic gear and the complete lack of such an item in MIC. This isn't to say that they can't exist, though I'd definitely limit a PCs ability to access such items.
Another point which may have already been brought up (I'm not going to read all 70 pages of stuff here.) Oma has his Shirt of UMD +20 and DS +12 listed as 54,400gp.
The price should actually be 61,600gp (40,000 for +20 UMD plus 14,400*1.5 for +12 DS) using the rules for improving magic items on pg233 of Magic Item Compendium.
Even the above mentioned Gloves of Swimming and Climbing uses this formula to determine it's cost (2,500 for +5 Swim plus 2,500*1.5 for +5 Climb = 6,250gp)
= My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.Show
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. • When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. • When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. • When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. • When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. • When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
So what Spell would you use to make a +20 UMD item? I think if one is going to make a Customer magic item like this, then they need to justify how it is made.
I'd like to see any such item over +10 bonus that uses Skill ranks only.
Without poring over the books beyond core, something like Rary's mnemonic enhancer or imbue with spell ability would have credibly appropriate behaviour. Or identify; that's pretty much the go-to spell for understanding how to use items.
Using that train of thought Identify certainly would be a viable option to make a UMD item. Considering the rules for Identifying Magic Items using Spellcraft and Detect Magic on pg82 of Rules Compendium, Detect Magic should also work. The required Caster Level for the item would still be 20th though for a +20 competence bonus.
i've been pouring through spells, It occurred to me that perhaps Analyze dweomer would be appropriate, it's efect on items "you learn its functions, how to activate its functions " seems like it would fit. I take it the 1,500 gp focus wouldn't be calculated into it
just the same, as this is a custom Item it is subject to DM's aproval (and possibly adjusted in price) personally in my games I would be reluctant to let a +20 Skill item like this into the game, in light of it not being a trained only skill, (hide, balance, Move Silently, Spot, Search are able to be used Untrained) particularly a skill like this, shouldn't be made into a +20 item so easily, (am I rambling?)
Anyways, this makes a single item that easily competes with a class skill and trivializes the DCs, easily making even a cross-class skilled person be able to easily beat the hardest DCs (such as casting from a level 9 scroll) without rolling. It is technically doable, but imo a DM would be making a mistake in blindly allowing this into a game, custom magic items are tricky
Analyze dweomer is basically the higher-level version of identify, so I'd expect it to be appropriate. As for the focus, since the item doesn't actually cast analyze dweomer (or identify, if using that spell), you don't need to include the any foci or material components in the pricing.
The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens
= My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.Show
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. • When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. • When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. • When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. • When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. • When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
