1: Oma, treasure typically sells at half value, so consumables are often better used then sold. As for potions in treasure, there is a certain need for those items when they drop, particularly when on a long quest. Potions being used long before there is an opportunity to seel them for your items.
Here you make a common mistake in comparing an organic character with one created at a higher level, a good portion of a character's gear is normally found in random treasure rather then purchased outright, since it is standard to sell at half price. It is rare for an organic character to have 100% custom gear, if you are adventuring and spend 2 levels in a deep dungeon, you won't be selling your potions to buy a wand, not unless you omit to using either consumable until after the particular adventure.
2: How your characetr works in a poorly concieved group of just orc barbarians is moot point, that is again a special case scenerio, most groups (and indeed the basis of game design) will have a healer of some type in it. If your UMD fighter is all the group has for a healer/arcane caster, then it goes without saying that you will not compete with a balanced group. But then again a Ranger or Paladin in that group would be fare more effective since you have no casters.
3: buying all those wands with the party pool and then handing them to the least proficent member of the group? In most groups you will have a healer and an arcane caster, so such group purchases would be best handed to them. There is very little reason for you to get them in any event as your job is to melee/tank so the items can be efectively used in combat.
4: poorly balanced groups are a lousy example of how to build a class, and in the absence of casters a Paladin would be a better choice then a UMD fight be merit of actually casting a spell. As for the pearls of power, you just purchased 15 wands, Why not buy 12 wands and 2 pearls of power?
Time is Gold and using wands for half the heal per charge and as a standard action giving up your attacks, vs nearly double the heal from a swift heal plus a full round melee attack (or a second spell) thats 3-4 times more hP healed in a round, during a fight the difference between the two can mean life or death.
As said the wands can be functionally better employed by others as well as full value from expendibles.
Also it comes to a finite number of encounters, so the "time is Gold" is not true, no matter how fast you kill everything in a dungeon, you face a fixed number of encounters with a fixed reward, the difference is that you were reckless and burnt through 10,000gp of consumables whereas my group did the same dungeon and got the same treasure without burning the consumables.
Bottom line is that rushing encounters like this accomplished nothing of note but wastes consumables.
5: Oh I thought you were playing a Human for the Able Learner feat, as well as a Core race? Now it is a Hellbred race? uhuuh, ok, I see. Well i made my character with only 1 level adjustment and core spells only and I rock over you.
6: Yes, but most spell casters stay out of direct melee and are doing nothing else anyways. Your fighter is right in the frey, or at least he should be.
7: The overall effectiveness of any melee class should be based on a typical group with an arcane caster and a Healer and no overt handicap.
How well you do in a party of orc barbarians is laughable Oma, but the answer of course is that since I actually generate spells, better then you.
1- all the treasure have a GP value, as example any potion in a treasure give you a GP value because you can sell the potions, then if you use it as consumable you waste the GPs, now if your DM want to give the party potions as special treasure then he need rest the price of the potion to the standard treasure
4- for it you buy the supplies in advance, is more easy buy 15 Wands of Cure Light Wounds with the party Pool, as normal you know that you need almost 13-14 Standard Battles to level up, if are more then you fight with Lowered CR and then you spend a low number of Consumables as Standard are the same number of consumables per level no matter the numer of encounter
5- Check the ability Evil Exception (Ex) of the HELLBRED race an exalted character can cast evil spells.
...
1. You know something. In a properly played encounter there may be a "potion" as part of the treasure created but the PC may get NOTHING from it if it is first used by an NPC. As you clearly realize a potion's GP value is included when looking at the "treasure" an encounter has but how much it helps the PCs varies considerably. If an NPC uses the potion the PCs get nothing. If the PCs sell the potion they only get half of its GP value. The PCs can also use the potion which is actually utilizing it's full GP value although you seem to be saying that doing so "wastes" the potion.
4. Spending a lot on "supplies" before hand can be risky. You know you need to carry all of that arround which could add to the groups encumbrance and slow them down? I'd also say that having "15 wands of CLW" just sitting around makes an inviting target for theft or maybe even loss. I wouldn't be above sending in a low EL thief who may relieve the party of certain things; if he can avoid detection and get away with something then the thief has won and it cost the part resource to deal with it despite gaining no XP.
Battles of attrition aren't used nearly as much in 3.x as they should be and as they once were in 2e. This is a big reason why spellcasters are seen as so much stronger then they were in earlier editions because dungeon crawls don't have as many fights in them.
5. There are several "issues" with your Hellbred arguements. For starters didn't I see a human only feat in your build? The bigger is that you need to reread Evil Exception. The ability allow the Hellbred to use things as if he were evil BUT "This ability does not shield a hellbred from losing access to class features if he violates a class's code of conduct." Now I'm sure you're going to say that being "exalted" isn't the same as having a class with a code of conduct and you may be right; exalted is a lot more stringent then that. Doing evil will cost you exalted status and casting an evil spell is an evil act; most characters can get away with performing actions against their alignment but your exalted status is harder to maintain then a paladin's status.
1- You are based your argument in a non standard treasure generation, as normal the rules cover and for it the NPCs have a limit of Gps in items and consumables, as example the standard treasure of a CR 9 are 4500 Gps while a the NPC CR 9 wealth are 12 000Gps, if you sell all the items of the NPC you gain the average of 4500 (because some items are wasted or not are Full), and right at level 2 can't leave the dungeon to sell all the treasure but at level 12 when you can use teleport is diferent, again you are pointed a single stage.
2- well then your paladin are out of context too because the Cleric can cure better, the wizard can cast arcane spells better and the Fighter can fighter better with is this kind of argument??? as standard you don't control or force the other character, if you can do more that the normal then you let a plus to the party, as example the fighter can use personal spells with the scroll and gain some special bonus that normally dont have, as example a scroll of Trollshape spell or Visage of the Deity greater or use the wand of blade of blood whit her casting Gloves.
3- wow now you are saying that the fighter is the less proficient???? the crusaders and both war blades don't have rank in the skill "Use Magical Divice", now under the standard right but in this case you as a fighter going to spend less in consumables and buy only buff consumables to overcome the Boss.
4- because the fighter not is a spell caster and not are subject to Counterspell like the Paladin, now the paladin can't fight at the same level that a team of Non Spell Caster because he need her Spell Casting Ability to are at pair of her pals, the paladin only would delaythe group.
5- The wands are for the end of battle while the battle you waste the Scroll with Buff (you know if the Battle going to be hard in the second round) then while in battle you are more slow that a standard fighter to deal damage then while you are curing your wounds in middle of the battle the fighter are curing her wounds with the wand because her defead her opponent.
6- Then in the same way you can attack the spell caster using teleporting, using a bow or going out of hisline of sight
7- Then you Paladin are unuseful because the cleric can heal better and the wizard can cast better then use the paladin is the last option in a party because exist a lot of better Melee Combat Characters
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
1- the wealth per level are an average because the NPCs can waste or not the treasure as example the NPC CR 9 have 12 000 Gps in treasure if you can sell all you gain 6000 Gps intead of 4500 that are the average or if he waste all her consumables maybe you only gain 3000 Gps intead of 4500, again this are cover for the rules.
2- 15 wands weight less that 1 Lb you can't say that the wands make the encumbrance, and again thief exist a lot of non magical methods to hide the items in part that they neverfound.
Well only because a spellcaster can't take many battles in a single day not is a point this are her strong and weak point because a mage with Full spells in high level are a powerful opponent unlike a fighter with full equipment.
3- ???? well you need see the example that use a paladin as base class, it say that you can use it but if you use it to do the right things not to do evil things, as example an Exalted hellbread can use HELLFIRED STORM to stop the evil spell caster that try to kill all the childrens in the orphanage with her Corrupted FireBall.
Evil Exception (Ex): Regardless of ALIGNMENT or class restrictions, a hellbred can cast spells with the evil descriptor and never gains negative levels while wielding evil magic items, such as unholy weapons or demon armor. This ability does not shield a hellbred from losing access to class features if he violates a class’s code of conduct.
For example, using a +1 unholy longsword to slay orcs would NOT violate a hellbred paladin’s code of conduct, though using the weapon to kill another paladin would.
Now as described in the BoED a exalted character can't make an evil act in any form but as described in the BoVD an evil spell unless that have a corrupted Cost don't or an evil porpuse can count as non evil.
Now an evil Act is let a fiend exist while a Good Act is let someone exist respecting the life, a character with vow of peace are under the DM discretion because let the Fiend Exist are an evil act.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
The treasure tables represent an average treasure award for a give CR/EL. Sometimes a challenge will yield NO TREASURE at all while other times an encounter will yield above average treasure. If you read a little you'd see that one thing that is recommended when a party starts getting "too much stuff" is to simply throw more encounters at the PCs that don't provide treasure.
The NPC equipment is value higher then the average treasure award for the give CR and there are a reasons for that. The first is that is assumed that it will be used against the PCs which makes it treasure the PCs earn instead of being given; giving the PCs a nice magic item is more fulfilling when the DM gets to use it against them first. Secondly, some of that NPC equipment will be in the form of consumable which should be consumed with the encounter and thus isn't going to enhance the PC's wealth levels. The final reason is that the NPC may have thing the PCs just can't make good use of and they will probably be selling those for half their listed value.
Now all of this discussion on treasure is fine but what does it have to do with overall topic?
If you are going to compare two characters and how they would do against each other you basically need to compare them as if they are one-shot characters which means using that pricing guideline MR.C pointed out before. Sure your consumable happy character may be able to "stock up" before going out on an adventure (the PC WBL table) but if you encounter that Paladin after you've been "adventuring" a while you stocks may will be lower which would be represented by a higher price paid stocking.
On the Hellbred topic you should know what those restrictions mean. Often times a good character couldn't cast an "evil" spell and then there are things you need to be evil to use and that ability lets you avoid that. It still doesn't excuse evil being done and remember that exalted is above paladin. Oh, and there is also that entire issue that Hellbred doesn't apply to your character unless you're also losing Able Learner.
Oma, Exalted doesn't care. All that matters is that you commited an Evil act. Then you fall. Lose your abilities. That's the end of it. Because BoED sucks.
Does anyone else here remember the "Suicide rush into Baator" argument a while ago? The fact that it was actually discussed should tell you all you need to know about the idiocy of Exalted.
That said, Lunars kick ass. Just sayin'.
Customer Disservice of the House of Trolls Resident Secretly Ron Paul God of Spite and Sloth
Oma, Being Hellbred means you loose the Able Learner feat, the Bonus Feat at 1st level for Humans and the +4 begining skill points and +1 skill point per level thereafter.
So You will have to spend 11 more points for UMD and will have 23 less skill points to spend, a total effective deficit of 34 Skill Points
As for treasure, I hope you understand that the Wealth by Level guidelines are in the DMG for a reason, it recommends outright that the DM use those level to control the character's power.
Either way a good portion of that treasure is potions, and while you can argue that you can sell those potions at half price and buy wands, the fact is those potions are valuable to give to those classes that can't cast heals.
You are just trying to deny the costs, 11,000 gp in cure light wands? Thats just the start.
As for the HellFire Storm Spell:
Evil Exception (Ex): Regardless of ALIGNMENT or class restrictions, a hellbred can cast spells with the evil descriptor and never gains negative levels while wielding evil magic items, such as unholy weapons or demon armor. This ability does not shield a hellbred from losing access to class features if he violates a class’s code of conduct
You always highlight the wrong part, don't you?
Normally a character such as a Good alligned cleric (or cleric of a Good deity) cannot cast a spell of the opposing (evil) allignment. Even if they wanted to they could not do so.
With this racial feature a Good alligned HellBred Cleric could cast Evil Spells.
However, the case a character who's Code of Conduct would be violated (remember paladin, fight honorably, don't use poison, etc) by doing so would not be shielded from loosing their features for the violation. This would include Your "Exalted" status. See page 9 "Ends and Means" in the Book of Exalted Deeds. you loose Your exalted status for any evil act, regardless of the ends or justification.
The Book of Vile Darkness has a section called Evil Acts on pages 7-9, one of which is Casting Evil Spells. It states:
"Sometimes, a nonevil spellcaster can get away with casting a few evil spells, as long as he or she does not do so for an evil purpose. But the path of evil magic leads quickly to corruption and destruction."
On pg77 it describes why a spell is considered to be Evil:
"Spells have the evil descriptor because they do one or more of the following things. • They cause undue suffering or negative emotions. • They call upon evil gods or energies. • They create, summon, or improve undead or other evil monsters. • They harm souls. • They involve unsavory practices such as cannibalism or drug use."
Considering the fact that Vile Darkness is the companion book to Exalted deeds, it seems clear that this passage from the section, Ends and Means pg9 BoED,
"Any exalted character risks losing exalted feats or other benefits of celestial favor if he commits any act of evil for any reason. Whether or not good ends can justify evil means, they certainly cannot make evil means any less evil,"
states unequivocally that an Exalted character cannot "get away with casting a few evil spells, as long as he or she does not do so for an evil purpose." Casting Evil spells equals loosing Exalted status.
Using "Evil" weapons or armor is not mentioned in the list of Evil Acts, as such, if a character (like the Hellbred) can pick up and use such an item with no ill effects, then, provided he doesn't use the item for an Evil purpose, he wouldn't lose his Exalted status.
A Paladin has no Evil spells on his spell list, so the Hellbred's Evil Exception trait is moot regarding spellcasting. If a Paladin has ranks in Use Magic Device and bought/maintained an Evil wand or Scroll for future use, I would consider that intention of use to be an evil act that would cause him to loose the use of his Paladin abilities until he repented.
The Evil Exception trait says,
"This ability does not shield a hellbred from losing access to class features if he violates a class's Code of Conduct."
This line specifies "Code of Conduct", which applies to Exalted Feats. I know Exalted feats are not technically a "class feature" but they do require a Code of Conduct in order to maintain.
"Only intelligent characters of good alignment and the highest moral standards can acquire exalted feats, and only as a gift from powerful agents of good—deities, celestials, or similar creatures."
and
"A character who willingly and willfully commits an evil act loses all benefits from all his exalted feats. She regains these benefits if she atones for her violations"
This, amazingly, is nearly identical verbage used in the Code of Conduct and Ex-Paladin sections for a Paladin in PHB. As such, I would definitely classify Exalted Feats as NOT being protected by a hellbred's Evil Exception trait.
This also begs the question of how does Oma plan on getting any of these scrolls in the first place?
With a Fighter who has no ranks in SpellCraft of Knowledge Arcana, it is unlikely that he has even heard of these spells from rare and obscure classes. Wizards and Sorcerors are par for the course, but Oriental Wei Jun (sp?) high level scrolls? HellFire scrolls? While they might encounter those can cast these spells, and get some scrolls as loot. This in itself would be rare, getting these particular spells in the scrolls even rarer. These are scrolls that wouldn't be available in 99% of games.
How about buying them? Well unless there are those who can cast these spells in a town (again rare outside of a particular setting) they won't be readily available. And without Knowledge (arcana) it is extremely unlikely he has even heard of the classes, let alone the particular spells, so would never know to ask or where to look.
In fact just buying regular scrolls for common spells would be difficult with his lack of knowledge, how does he know that Prestidigitation isn't a 5th level illusion spell? Especially in a group that doesn't have a caster of any kind in it. Looking for rare scrolls from obscure classes would be astronomical to find (let alone specific high level spells)
Even if you have a Wizard in your group, and he identifies the spell, kind of (school, rough idea of the theory) he won't fully understand it enough to tell you what you are casting. "it's a spell that imbues you with magic for a ritual suicide" is the best you are likely to know about Transend mortality. If you are lucky! Or else he will tell you it is an awesome buff spell and later one they will stand around your pile of ashes and wonder what hit you.
Where do you get these spells Oma? You certainly couldn't buy them in any regular setting, your chances of finding them in loot is far too remote to base a class build on. It would be excedingly ultra rare to get ahold of one of these spells, let alone several different such spells.
In-game, you could learn about spells in a piecemeal fashion by deciphering the scrolls that you found, but when you're talking about building a character, that's like claiming that you know the traits of a monster based on backstory. It's technically possible, but it comes down to the DM allowing it.
You could also have a knowledgeable spellcaster as a friend or party member, but that seems pretty similar, and would go against the independence that Oma seems to be favouring.
I suppose, theoretically, a fighter with the Skilled City Dweller variant could have found out about sellers of useful buffing spells through Gather Information, and examined the goods directly with Use Magic Device (by deciphering the scrolls), so it's possible, but I haven't heard any mention of Gather Information in his build, and he'd need a decent number of ranks to find a source for the more obscure items.
For something like transcend mortality, I'd expect a description like "It makes you nearly invincible by using your own life force as fuel." Deciphering the spell is going to tell the user what they need to know about using it, including the part about dying, but I wouldn't expect that part to be something a seller would spread around if they want to attract interested customers; "the ultimate last-ditch effort" would be the summary of what I'd expect as a successful sales pitch once they've got the buyer in their shop.
The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens
= My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.Show
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. • When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. • When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. • When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. • When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. • When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
