1: You can cast any spell that you've prepared. Stop being an idiot.
A Spell list is no more then the list of spells that can be cast from those spell slots. This feat adds Wizard spells to the list of spells that can be prepared in a Paladin's Spell slots.
Question: The Paladin has spell slots, what is the list of spells he can prepare in those spell slots with this feat?
Answer: All Paladin and Wizard spells would be on the list of spells the Paladin can prepare in those spell slots.
2: Can cast any spell that you can prepare. The feat overwrites the base class.
3: You can gain the same spells from multiple classes, your caster levels for the spell slots of the one class does not apply to those of the others. Not "class of spells" because no such term exists, but Class.
Paladin class uses his caster level for his spell slots
Wizard class uses his caster level for his spell slots
which is USUALLY equal to your class level in the class you’re using to cast the spell.
Yes Usually means not always. For example in the case of Spell Pentration gives a +2 CL, Practices Spell Caster gives +4 Caster Levels. And of course a Paladin's Caster level isn't equal to his class level.
So Bravo on your irrelevant quotes.
The DMG also says "The" so clearly you are wrong.
In this case a Mystic Fire Knights Caster Level is Half Paladin level +2 + Arcane Caster Levels, so it doesn;t follow the "usually" is again not relevant.
Usually the Wizard caster level, if you also had levels in wizard, would be equal to your wizard levels, but in this case the wizard gets to add the Paladin levels. Which has nothing to do with the paladin's CL.
Slagger, excuse me, I was reading the phrase "as if you were a wizard" from the feat itself. The character doesn't just have access to his own limited spell book, but just like a wizard, on any wizard spell, adding them to his "spells known" in the same manner as a Wizard, ie writting them into his spellbook from scrolls, other wizard spellbooks or researching them.
I don't see that "as if you were a wizard" phrase in the feat. What source are you using?
Technically speaking, the feat does state that the character can prepare wizard spells from their own spellbook or another character's spellbook, but does not outright state that they've got the full spell list knowledge that a wizard would use to activate things like spell trigger items. They may be intended to have that knowledge, but the feat doesn't address it.
The only difference is not starting off with Spells Known, or getting the 2 spells/level that Wizards get for free presents some considerable chalenges to getting a spellbook, as per the rules, the need to desipher,(made slightly easier once you get Read Magic) study and the copy the spell.
That's already a tricky point with wizards, since they don't really know spells in the same way as a sorcerer; they have full spell list access for triggering items (just like any other spellcaster), but the spells they know how to prepare are simply those that appear in their spellbook. Unless they've got Spell Mastery, of course.
Though, somewhat misleadingly, the text often talks about wizards knowing or learning spells even though what it actually means is that they've written those spells into their spellbook.
Mystic Fire Knight adds Spellcraft and Knowledge (Arcana) to the Paladin Skill list for this purpose. He has the same access to all Wizard spells as if he were a wizard, not just X amount of spells known, this Palaidn can prepare any spell he can get his hands on, via the same rules a wizard has.
There again is the distinction; the preparation ability is clearly given, yet the spell list on which it depends technically is not, since the feat doesn't note adding spells to any class spell lists.
The use of "wizard" to describe those spells is typical, first it makes it clear that it is only refering to those spells gained from the wizard list as opposed to the Paladin spells, and secondly it is a commonly used format. The rules for Arcane Magical Writings, copying spells etc all use "wizard" even though there are other classes that prepare arcane spells from spellbooks. They could have simply wrote, you cast spells like a wizard instead of explaining it at length but that would have perhaps created some confusion with how the Paladin spells were prepared.
The rules for magical writings are written in the core materials, and the other classes with spellbooks typically build on that by referring to themselves as functioning like the wizard.
As for the terminology, there's already a lack of clarity on the preparation as a result of the way the feat is written, and while it might be argued that the "wizard spells" is simply describing their source, there's absolutely nothing that calls them "paladin spells". If they became paladin spells added to the paladin spell list, they would naturally be assumed to become divine spells.
A Spell list is no more then the list of spells that can be cast from those spell slots. This feat adds Wizard spells to the list of spells that can be prepared in a Paladin's Spell slots.
That's demonstrably untrue. A spell list defines your absolute potential to use spell effects, even if you don't have any spell slots. A paladin is a perfect example, since they have the ability to use spell trigger items for spells on their paladin list before they even receive their first spell slot.
Rather than adding to a list, I think it would be more accurate to say that the feat allows the paladin to access the wizard spell list as well as the paladin spell list; the character isn't using a single combined spell list, but gaining the ability to draw from two separate spell lists to fill their paladin spell slots.
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1: You can cast any spell that you've prepared. Stop being an idiot.
A Spell list is no more then the list of spells that can be cast from those spell slots. This feat adds Wizard spells to the list of spells that can be prepared in a Paladin's Spell slots.
Question: The Paladin has spell slots, what is the list of spells he can prepare in those spell slots with this feat?
Answer: All Paladin and Wizard spells would be on the list of spells the Paladin can prepare in those spell slots.
2: Can cast any spell that you can prepare. The feat overwrites the base class.
3: You can gain the same spells from multiple classes, your caster levels for the spell slots of the one class does not apply to those of the others. Not "class of spells" because no such term exists, but Class.
Paladin class uses his caster level for his spell slots
Wizard class uses his caster level for his spell slots
which is USUALLY equal to your class level in the class you’re using to cast the spell.
Yes Usually means not always. For example in the case of Spell Pentration gives a +2 CL, Practices Spell Caster gives +4 Caster Levels. And of course a Paladin's Caster level isn't equal to his class level.
So Bravo on your irrelevant quotes.
The DMG also says "The" so clearly you are wrong.
In this case a Mystic Fire Knights Caster Level is Half Paladin level +2 + Arcane Caster Levels, so it doesn;t follow the "usually" is again not relevant.
Usually the Wizard caster level, if you also had levels in wizard, would be equal to your wizard levels, but in this case the wizard gets to add the Paladin levels. Which has nothing to do with the paladin's CL.
1- sorry to cast a spell prepared you need meet the requirements, as example a wizard level 20 that fail a course and change her int to 1 can't cast any prepared spell.
the feat never say that you add those spells to your paladin spell list.
2- you are wrong the fact that a specific rule let you put wizards spells in your paladin spells slots dont means that you add those spells to your paladin spell list unless described that don't is the case.
3- sorry but not, you use the Class of the spells to cast the spells, in this case you use the wizard one to cast the wizards spells.
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I don't see that "as if you were a wizard" phrase in the feat. What source are you using?
Technically speaking, the feat does state that the character can prepare wizard spells from their own spellbook or another character's spellbook, but does not outright state that they've got the full spell list knowledge that a wizard would use to activate things like spell trigger items. They may be intended to have that knowledge, but the feat doesn't address it.
I used the Champions of Valor Source book.
As for activating things, those rules are under the rules for spell trigger items, spell completion itsems, any character with the spell on their spell list can activate spell trigger items.Even if he can't cast the spells
And really, lets be frank here, if I can pprepare and cast a spell, then it is on my spell list (the list of spells that I can prepare and cast)
That's already a tricky point with wizards, since they don't really know spells in the same way as a sorcerer; they have full spell list access for triggering items (just like any other spellcaster), but the spells they know how to prepare are simply those that appear in their spellbook. Unless they've got Spell Mastery, of course.
Though, somewhat misleadingly, the text often talks about wizards knowing or learning spells even though what it actually means is that they've written those spells into their spellbook.
The text isn't misleading when it talks about learning spells. A Wizard has to either leanr the spell from a source (deciphering a scroll or another wizard's spellbook) or else research the spell at considerable time and expense. the 2 "free" spells a wizard gets each level is misleading, it is persumed that they have been researching that spell during the period of the previous level.
As for the understanding of spells. Classes with Arcane spells are given the SpellCraft skill to reflect that understanding, and the Mystic Fire Knight is given access to Spellcraft as a class skill, the only purpose of which is the understanding of spells
There again is the distinction; the preparation ability is clearly given, yet the spell list on which it depends technically is not, since the feat doesn't note adding spells to any class spell lists.
Again, a Spell List is the list of spells in which you are able to prepare and cast from those spell slots. The ability to prepare and cast the spells into the classes spell slots is adding them to the spell list.
Saying that it might have meant that, and it explained in detail how you can do exactly that, and claiming that it doesn't actually say you can do that. is rediculous. "here is the key to my car, you can use my care to go anywhere you like, Hey who said you could drive my car?" The line of reasoning is faulty.
The rules for magical writings are written in the core materials, and the other classes with spellbooks typically build on that by referring to themselves as functioning like the wizard.
Except Spellcraft is also used by Bards and Sorcerors who specifically don't function like Wizards
As for the terminology, there's already a lack of clarity on the preparation as a result of the way the feat is written, and while it might be argued that the "wizard spells" is simply describing their source, there's absolutely nothing that calls them "paladin spells". If they became paladin spells added to the paladin spell list, they would naturally be assumed to become divine spells.
Again a Spell List is nothing more then the list of spells that can be cast from the classes Spell Slots.
As for naturally assumed to be divine spells, what would you call spells cast from Divine Spell Slots? The feat already presents an exception to the general rule that only Divine Spells can be cast from Divine Spell slots, a Cleric can't cast an arcane version of their spell from a scroll, ie both Wizards and Clerics get Detect Undead, and a Bard can't use a Divine Cure Light wand. So on the same token as being able to cast arcane spells from a divine spell slot, the class has both Divine and Arcane spells on the same spell list.
What Spells can I prepare into a Paladin spell slot with this feat? Any Wizard or Paladin spell. Ergo, my spell list is all Wizard and Paladin spells.
please quote the rule that say that any spell that you can put in your spells slot is considered a spell from your spell list.
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1: Oma, this is incorrect, the level 20 Wizard with 10 Inteligence can still prepare and cast spells from his 9th level spell slots, and can still use Wands and magic items.
Also a spell list is just a list of spells you are able to prepare and cast in your spell slots.
Included in the list of spells my paladin can prepare and cast in his level 1 spell slots are: Cure Light Wounds, True Striking, Divine Favor, Magic Missile......The List of spells that I could prepare in my level 1 Spell slot is all 1st level Paladin Spells and all 1st level Wizard spells
My 1st level "transmutation spells" would include Bless, Bless Weapon, Magic Weapon, Virtue, Animate Rope, Magic Weapon, Enlarge Person, Feather Fall.....
All of the above (and more) are included in the list of spells I can prepare and cast in my 1st Level Spell Slots
2: See above, the list of spells that I can prepare and cast from my paladin spell slots includes wizard spells. I can prepare wizard spells into those slots.
3: No, your caster has a Caster level, inherent to his class. As this feat doesn't require Wizard levels, their is no requirement for a wizard caster level. You simply write this feat into the Paladin class descrition, to add the spells to those the paladin can prepare. He uses the CL of the class who provides the Spell Slots.
You may as well quote "Paladins are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (except tower shields)." To state that Paladins who takethe feats, Tower Shield Proficiency, or Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Swords) can't add these proficiencies to their class.
1: Oma, this is incorrect, the level 20 Wizard with 10 Inteligence can still prepare and cast spells from his 9th level spell slots, and can still use Wands and magic items.
Also a spell list is just a list of spells you are able to prepare and cast in your spell slots.
Included in the list of spells my paladin can prepare and cast in his level 1 spell slots are: Cure Light Wounds, True Striking, Divine Favor, Magic Missile......The List of spells that I could prepare in my level 1 Spell slot is all 1st level Paladin Spells and all 1st level Wizard spells
My 1st level "transmutation spells" would include Bless, Bless Weapon, Magic Weapon, Virtue, Animate Rope, Magic Weapon, Enlarge Person, Feather Fall.....
All of the above (and more) are included in the list of spells I can prepare and cast in my 1st Level Spell Slots
2: See above, the list of spells that I can prepare and cast from my paladin spell slots includes wizard spells. I can prepare wizard spells into those slots.
3: No, your caster has a Caster level, inherent to his class. As this feat doesn't require Wizard levels, their is no requirement for a wizard caster level. You simply write this feat into the Paladin class descrition, to add the spells to those the paladin can prepare. He uses the CL of the class who provides the Spell Slots.
You may as well quote "Paladins are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (except tower shields)." To state that Paladins who takethe feats, Tower Shield Proficiency, or Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Swords) can't add these proficiencies to their class.
1- from the wizard spell class feature.
To LEARN, PREPARE, OR CAST a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a wizard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the wizard’s Intelligence modifier.
still you don't are quoting the rule, you can prepare that spells because are in your Paladin spell list not vice versa.
2- yes the feat let you the ability to prepare thats spells but never say that you add those to your paladin spell list.
3- Yes like the one that let a figther cast spells like a wizard but that spell let you a CL. and still are wizard spells and use wizard caster level and as noted in the rules when some entry miss this your CL is equal to your class level.
if you read the rules you know that the fighter gain those feats as bonus feats at first level and any other class gain the feats depending of her class.
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1: Irrelevant rules, this feat allows paladins to do the same thing, a Paladin must have the same requirements Ability score=10+ spell level.
Secondly that is to be able to cast spells of that level, not the ability to have spell slots. Read the damn PHB Oma, a Wizard with 11 Int can prepare 1st level spells in his 9th Level spell Slots, as explained in the caster section.
Further using spell trigger only requires that you have the spells on your spell list, not that you be able to cast them. A level 1 Wizard with 5 Int can use a level 4 Wand.
2: And around and round the stupid circle goes. Oma, read this slowly and let it sink in: A list of spells that you can prepare in your spell slots is a...Spell list!
3: What Fighter Feat lets them cast spells? Or do you mean a Spell-Like Ability? At any rate, a Fighter doesn't have a Caster level so would have to be given one by the ability.
It is irrevevant since the Paladin in question is using Paladin Spell Slots, that already have a determined CL. In this case, Half Paladin Level +2 + Arcane Levels.
Wizard Caster Level applies to the Wizard Spell Slots, not to the Spell slots of other classes.
1: Irrelevant rules, this feat allows paladins to do the same thing, a Paladin must have the same requirements Ability score=10+ spell level.
Secondly that is to be able to cast spells of that level, not the ability to have spell slots. Read the damn PHB Oma, a Wizard with 11 Int can prepare 1st level spells in his 9th Level spell Slots, as explained in the caster section.
Further using spell trigger only requires that you have the spells on your spell list, not that you be able to cast them. A level 1 Wizard with 5 Int can use a level 4 Wand.
2: And around and round the stupid circle goes. Oma, read this slowly and let it sink in: A list of spells that you can prepare in your spell slots is a...Spell list!
3: What Fighter Feat lets them cast spells? Or do you mean a Spell-Like Ability? At any rate, a Fighter doesn't have a Caster level so would have to be given one by the ability.
It is irrevevant since the Paladin in question is using Paladin Spell Slots, that already have a determined CL. In this case, Half Paladin Level +2 + Arcane Levels.
Wizard Caster Level applies to the Wizard Spell Slots, not to the Spell slots of other classes.
1-
A) sorry the feat never talk about CAST spells, never talk about your CL.
B)Magic Overview, Arcane Magic.
PREPARING WIZARD SPELLS
A wizard’s level limits the number of spells she can prepare and cast. Her high Intelligence score might allow her to prepare a few extra spells. She can prepare the same spell more than once, but each preparation counts as one spell toward her daily limit. To prepare a spell the wizard must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the spell’s level.
2- Not, no rule say it, as normal you put spells from you spell list in your spell slot but if some extra abilitie let you put other spells and those spells and those spells not are described to an add to your spell list then those spells not are of your spells list, in first plase if the feat was wanted it the feat would say "you Add any spell in your spellbook to your paladin spell list" or "you add the wizards spells to your paladin spell list but you still need have any wizard spell in a spellbook" and this not the case.
3- first a spell slot never have a CL but the spell you hold in the slot can have one at the time to cast it. in this case a paladin lv 12 with this feat and Specials SL would have a CL 8 (12/2+2+0) thats right but this CL don't have any to do with your wizard caster level, wizard CL apply to any wizard spell you cast.
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While I've also lamented the lack of clarity with Sword of the Arcane Order (see the A-Game Paladin), and I largely stay out of threads that Oma corrupts, I figure I could contribute here.
Rather than adding to a list, I think it would be more accurate to say that the feat allows the paladin to access the wizard spell list as well as the paladin spell list; the character isn't using a single combined spell list, but gaining the ability to draw from two separate spell lists to fill their paladin spell slots.
But if that's the case, then the character can still access the wizard spell list (just as a separate entry from his paladin spell list, in much the same way, say, a bard X / Ranger 1 can access the ranger spell list separately from the bard list, even though the ranger has no dedicated ranger slots at level 1). Can the Sword of the Arcane Order paladin, therefore, use scrolls and wands of wizard spells, provided his Intelligence is high enough?
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