You quoted the whole feat, and said absolutely nothing else... Why, exactly? Especially since what you emphasized doesn't say what you think it does. Nice try, though. Any other rules you want to intentionally misunderstand because you're incapable of admitting error?
as you can see the feat say that you prepare the spells like a wizard
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Actually the feat says you prepare spells (as if you were a wizard), which adds them to the Paladin Spell list.
So a Paladin can cast spells, that it prepares from it's divine Paladin Spell List and it's Arcane spell list. A Paladin must prepare it's spells in advance to cast them.
That is the first part of the feat.
To qualify for this feat, he must be a 4th level Paladin, a member of the order, and have his 4th level in the order's primary class (ie Mystic Fire Knight)
The Mystic Fire Knight's Caster Level is Half Paladin Level+2+Any Arcane Levels.The Feat allows this Paladin to cast Arcane Spells and that is the Paladin's Caster Level.
The only reason to prepare spells is to cast them.
The last paragraph deals with any Wizard levels you add to the class. Your Wizard's Caster Level is equal to your Paladin and Wizard levels.
A Wizard's actual knowledge of spells comes from a spellbook does it not?
The wizard's knowledge of specific spells to prepare depends on her spellbook, yet her ability to use things like spell trigger items (which require special knowledge of the relevant spells) depends on her full wizard spell list. Unless you involve Spell Mastery or the like, the wizard's spell knowledge is based on her wizard list and whatever magical writing she happens to have in front of her.
So, there's a difference between her spells known (which depends on what she can read at the time), and her more general ability to use magic, which is linked to her full wizard spell list.
A Spell list is nothing more then a list of spells that you are able to prepare and cast from your spell slots. If the Paladin can cast a spell from his spell slots, then it is on his spell list (list of spells for those spell slots) And this class can obtian his own spellbook (albeit this is a real pain to do)
It certainly can be, and it's often true, it's just not an explicitly stated fact (and a class spell list also allows you to use magical items even if they're using spells that aren't on your personal list of known spells or in your spellbook). The fact the kind of crossover we're talking about doesn't define it as an outcome is part of the difficulty in deciding exactly how to handle it, after all.
There is nothing contradictory, for example, about a special ability that allows you to cast spells from one class using slots from another, but that doesn't automatically result in the spells from one class being added to the spell list of the other. The fact that the feat already provides you with the knowledge that you can cast those spells with your paladin slots means there's no direct need to add them to your paladin spell list.
Generally when another classes spells are added they are treated as a seperate list of spells, ie a Cleric/Wizard would have a seperate tier of Cleric and a Tier of Wizard spell slots, each indepentant of the other. In this case the Paladin has only a single tier of spell slots, the list of spells he can cast from those slots includes both paladin spells and arcane wizard/sorceror spells.
Saying "here is the list of spells you can cast, but you don't have a spell list" is somewhat.....contradictory at best.
There's a slightly more inherent level of contradiction there, since the feat itself considers the wizard spells to be different; if you were simply adding the spells to the paladin list they would then be paladin spells, rather than wizard spells, and you wouldn't be doing things like casting them with your Intelligence score.
You've still got your paladin spell list, and it works as normal, but you've also got the ability to put spells from the wizard spell list into your paladin slots, and they function by their own rules rather than working like paladin spells.
Consider the fact that you can have your own spellbook as a result of some levels in wizard and can use those spells with paladin slots. They're certainly still spells you have as a wizard, and there's no particular need for them to appear on the paladin spell list, since you already know you can use them.
The primary class of Knights of the Mystic Fire should be Mystic Fire Knight. I think it unlikely though to have membership in this organization without the substitute level (what would be the point in joining?) but I would not insist upon the point as it isn't entirely clear. Either way the Feat is clearly designed to work with the Substitute class in the same book.
It doesn't matter really, then the CL of the Paladin's spells would be just half Paladin levels, rather then 2 + Paladin Levels + Arcane Levels. Either way the Paladin spells (arcane and divine) would have a CL without needing Wizard levels.
I could see them skipping the 4th level substitution if they were using divine feats. It's not an easy choice, but even with the caster level boost paladin spells aren't all-powerful, and they could easily be overshadowed by wizard spellcasting for a Knight of the Mystic Fire.
I agree that they're clearly designed to function together, and that it doesn't really make any difference except setting their paladin caster level at a different value.
The final sentence is a seperate paragraph. If you have levels in Wizard, you would have wizard spells, with or without this feat. This feat would allow you to add your paladin levels to your wizard class, Caster Level. Wizard Caster Level, not "Paladin's Caster Level of Wizard Spells" Levels in wizard would give you a seperate, independent tier of wizard spells
Exactly.
The question we have to deal with here is whether the paladin's caster level of paladin spells is being used for their wizard spells, or if they actually have a caster level of wizard spells (if they have one, it would default to being equal to their class level, since that's the standard for an unspecified caster level).
The only reason to prepare spells is to cast them.
Unless you want to power reserve feats, of course.
I do believe that the intent was to allow the spells to be cast, but the feat doesn't do a very good of covering all the details (it doesn't even state whether they're arcane or divine spells, though I'd assume arcane, since they're using Intelligence).
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The wizard's knowledge of specific spells to prepare depends on her spellbook, yet her ability to use things like spell trigger items (which require special knowledge of the relevant spells) depends on her full wizard spell list. Unless you involve Spell Mastery or the like, the wizard's spell knowledge is based on her wizard list and whatever magical writing she happens to have in front of her.
So, there's a difference between her spells known (which depends on what she can read at the time), and her more general ability to use magic, which is linked to her full wizard spell list.
And this Paladin can prepare any and all spells on the Wizard list, and the phrase, "as if you were a wizard", should make it clear that you have "special knowledge of the relevant spells, to use them. So, yes it applies to the more general ability to use magic. The base class, Mystic Fire Knights, has a number of changes to enable this, including adding Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft to the class, Improved Spell Casting, etc. So is clearly setting the class up for the build.
There's a slightly more inherent level of contradiction there, since the feat itself considers the wizard spells to be different; if you were simply adding the spells to the paladin list they would then be paladin spells, rather than wizard spells, and you wouldn't be doing things like casting them with your Intelligence score.
You've still got your paladin spell list, and it works as normal, but you've also got the ability to put spells from the wizard spell list into your paladin slots, and they function by their own rules rather than working like paladin spells.
It's a unique list that is comprised of both Arcane and Divine spells. Arcane spells and Divine spells follow different rules. It would be more accurate to say the Paladin has 2 spell lists (arcane and Divine) perhaps, but they are still Paladin spells.
The spells use the Paladin's Caster level and relevant feats and abilities. At the end of the day if the spells are in the Paladin's Spell Slots then they are treated as the Paladin's spells.
RAW then Battle Blessing would apply to any spell that a Paladin casts, since it makes no clarification otherwise.
My point was however that RAI don't always match RAW, and in the above case Battle Blessing should only apply to the Divine Paladin spells as it was intended. And was an example of how following RAW with an agenda to exploit with no regard to RAI will create problems.
I could see them skipping the 4th level substitution if they were using divine feats. It's not an easy choice, but even with the caster level boost paladin spells aren't all-powerful, and they could easily be overshadowed by wizard spellcasting for a Knight of the Mystic Fire.
If your intention is to add Wizard spells into the Paladin spell slots, then CL is most certainly going to be desperately needed. The wording of the feats requirements isn't entirely clear on if "the organizations primary class" is refering to Paladins, or Mystic Fire Knights, because Mystic Fire Knights are still Paladins so it refers to them as such.
I do believe that the intent was to allow the spells to be cast, but the feat doesn't do a very good of covering all the details (it doesn't even state whether they're arcane or divine spells, though I'd assume arcane, since they're using Intelligence).
Since the spells can be prepared from borrowed spell books, I would assume they are arcane, otherwise it would have to require particular divine versions of the spells. There are a few points in which they could have been more specific.
And this Paladin can prepare any and all spells on the Wizard list, and the phrase, "as if you were a wizard", should make it clear that you have "special knowledge of the relevant spells, to use them. So, yes it applies to the more general ability to use magic. The base class, Mystic Fire Knights, has a number of changes to enable this, including adding Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft to the class, Improved Spell Casting, etc. So is clearly setting the class up for the build.
The point I was making is that there's a difference between just the spellbook part (which is the wizard's equivalent of the sorcerer's "spells known") and the actual spell list access (which covers their full potential access and governs the use of things like spell trigger items).
Where are you reading the phrase "as if you were a wizard"?
It's a unique list that is comprised of both Arcane and Divine spells. Arcane spells and Divine spells follow different rules. It would be more accurate to say the Paladin has 2 spell lists (arcane and Divine) perhaps, but they are still Paladin spells.
The spells use the Paladin's Caster level and relevant feats and abilities. At the end of the day if the spells are in the Paladin's Spell Slots then they are treated as the Paladin's spells.
That's not an assumption supported by the given text. The feat only ever refers to them as "wizard spells".
RAW then Battle Blessing would apply to any spell that a Paladin casts, since it makes no clarification otherwise.
My point was however that RAI don't always match RAW, and in the above case Battle Blessing should only apply to the Divine Paladin spells as it was intended. And was an example of how following RAW with an agenda to exploit with no regard to RAI will create problems.
If they're counted as wizard spells (which is all they're ever described as in the RAW), you can't use Battle Blessing with them anyway, which seems to be the RAI you're favouring.
If your intention is to add Wizard spells into the Paladin spell slots, then CL is most certainly going to be desperately needed.
If the wizard spells still count as wizard spells (and nothing states otherwise), then you'd be using a wizard caster level for them instead, albeit one weirdly based on your paladin class, since that's the class you're using to cast the spell by employing paladin slots.
The simpler alternative, of course, is that you're simply casting wizard spells with your paladin caster level. They're still not paladin spells on the paladin spell list, but you use your paladin caster level for those wizard spells because paladin is the class that you use to cast them (since it supplies the spell slots and spellcasting ability).
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Slagger, why is that I'm starting to hear Laurence Fishburn's soothing voice in this movie doing the read-along of your posts in my head?
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Slagger, excuse me, I was reading the phrase "as if you were a wizard" from the feat itself. The character doesn't just have access to his own limited spell book, but just like a wizard, on any wizard spell, adding them to his "spells known" in the same manner as a Wizard, ie writting them into his spellbook from scrolls, other wizard spellbooks or researching them.
The only difference is not starting off with Spells Known, or getting the 2 spells/level that Wizards get for free presents some considerable chalenges to getting a spellbook, as per the rules, the need to desipher,(made slightly easier once you get Read Magic) study and the copy the spell.
Mystic Fire Knight adds Spellcraft and Knowledge (Arcana) to the Paladin Skill list for this purpose. He has the same access to all Wizard spells as if he were a wizard, not just X amount of spells known, this Palaidn can prepare any spell he can get his hands on, via the same rules a wizard has.
The use of "wizard" to describe those spells is typical, first it makes it clear that it is only refering to those spells gained from the wizard list as opposed to the Paladin spells, and secondly it is a commonly used format. The rules for Arcane Magical Writings, copying spells etc all use "wizard" even though there are other classes that prepare arcane spells from spellbooks. They could have simply wrote, you cast spells like a wizard instead of explaining it at length but that would have perhaps created some confusion with how the Paladin spells were prepared.
Slagger, excuse me, I was reading the phrase "as if you were a wizard" from the feat itself. The character doesn't just have access to his own limited spell book, but just like a wizard, on any wizard spell, adding them to his "spells known" in the same manner as a Wizard, ie writting them into his spellbook from scrolls, other wizard spellbooks or researching them.
The only difference is not starting off with Spells Known, or getting the 2 spells/level that Wizards get for free presents some considerable chalenges to getting a spellbook, as per the rules, the need to desipher,(made slightly easier once you get Read Magic) study and the copy the spell.
Mystic Fire Knight adds Spellcraft and Knowledge (Arcana) to the Paladin Skill list for this purpose. He has the same access to all Wizard spells as if he were a wizard, not just X amount of spells known, this Palaidn can prepare any spell he can get his hands on, via the same rules a wizard has.
The use of "wizard" to describe those spells is typical, first it makes it clear that it is only refering to those spells gained from the wizard list as opposed to the Paladin spells, and secondly it is a commonly used format. The rules for Arcane Magical Writings, copying spells etc all use "wizard" even though there are other classes that prepare arcane spells from spellbooks. They could have simply wrote, you cast spells like a wizard instead of explaining it at length but that would have perhaps created some confusion with how the Paladin spells were prepared.
the raw still is that you use WIZARDS SPELLS (remember that the main point of the feat is this "You can use your paladin and ranger spell slots to prepare wizard spells") and that you gain a spellbook as if you was a wizard then this spellbook have only arcane spells as if you was a wizard, as normal a paladin can't cast any arcane spell and arcane spells have ASF that a normal paladin not have because iscommonto have full plates and the feat never talk about cast it or CL for thats arcane spells unless you had wizard levels.
then the genelar rule is that you need use your class level when the caster level is not noted.
this spells not are in your paladin spell list the feat never say that you add it to your paladin spell list, as described not are paladin spells and dont are divine spells are arcane spells and the feat don't let you any ability to use your own caster level in those arcane spells.
Then at last a character paladin 12 with this feat cast divine paladin spells as CL 6 and Arcane wizards Spells as CL 12 but he can't apply any feat that work with paladin spells like battle blessing (You can cast most of your paladin spells faster than normal).
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a "spell list" is the list of spells that you can cast in your available Spell Slots. If the paladin can cast these spells in his paladin spell slots, then they are on his list of spells that he can cast from those slots.
A Paladin uses his Caster Level to cast his spells (any spells prepared in his paladin spell slots) which in this case is half Paladin levels+2+arcane levels.
The last sentence is refering to the Wizard caster level, the spells cast from your Wizard spell slots by your Wizard class, "if you also have wizard levels your wizard caster level..." The sentence is refering to the Wizard classes CL.
Your Paladin CL (spells cast from Paladin spell slots) is not effected by your Wizard CL.
a "spell list" is the list of spells that you can cast in your available Spell Slots. If the paladin can cast these spells in his paladin spell slots, then they are on his list of spells that he can cast from those slots.
A Paladin uses his Caster Level to cast his spells (any spells prepared in his paladin spell slots) which in this case is half Paladin levels+2+arcane levels.
The last sentence is refering to the Wizard caster level, the spells cast from your Wizard spell slots by your Wizard class, "if you also have wizard levels your wizard caster level..." The sentence is refering to the Wizard classes CL.
Your Paladin CL (spells cast from Paladin spell slots) is not effected by your Wizard CL.
1- Sorry but not, if you have a spell in your spell list don't means that you can cast it, as example a cleric, and still the feat never say you that you can add those spells to your paladin spell list.
the feat is a specific rule that overlap the standard rule then you can use your paladin slots to hold a wizard arcane spells, no more the feat don't let you add this spells to your paladin spell list or use it as divine spells or use your paladin CL in any point.
2- Sorry to cast her spells that are in her Paladint spell list well described in her class feature Spells.
3- Sorry but maybe you miss that Wizard CL apply to all wizard spells because the CL always have a class source unlike the Spell-like abilities, you have a CL per class of spells.
in this case to cast a wizard spell you need have wizard CL.
The Paladin CL work only in her spells form her spell list as described in her class feature "spells" and the rules is "A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which is USUALLY equal to your class level in the class you’re using to cast the spell. You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question. All level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level."
USUALLY = not always.
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