userless???? the you dont know how exploit the potential ofthings like this.
Yes, useless. What happens when you cast those wizard spells you prepared in your paladin slots?
and the same for you, Is this feat intended to say that you stack yours rangers and/or paladins level to determine your wizard CL???
If you have wizard levels, yes.
Personally, I think it is a poorly written feat that is intended primarily for Wizard/Paladin or Ranger gish builds, but it can be used by single class paladins or rangers. I think the wizard spells cast from your paladin slots are intended to be arcane spells that use your paladin CL.
well you cast it with you current wizard CL that is 0 but under the rules you can't cast a spell at this lower CL then you can use a feat to improved your caster level like practical spell caster wizard or use some items to improved your CL.
yes for it if your going to say that your wizard spell dont use your paladin level to use as Wizard CL then this feat work as described with CL of 0 unless you had it from other source.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
yes for it if your going to say that your wizard spell dont use your paladin level to use as Wizard CL then this feat work as described with CL of 0 unless you had it from other source.
Except that there IS no CL 0. No caster level, no spells.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice
"My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan
This user has been brought to you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
yes for it if your going to say that your wizard spell dont use your paladin level to use as Wizard CL then this feat work as described with CL of 0 unless you had it from other source.
Except that there IS no CL 0. No caster level, no spells.
don't have CL dont prevent that you put some spell in a spell slot only prevent to cast it
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
don't have CL dont prevent that you put some spell in a spell slot only prevent to cast it
Which means you can't use the spell OR the slot. Wow, you're really good at exploiting those loopholes!
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice
"My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan
This user has been brought to you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
I think we have to assume that the feat is supposed to be useful all by itself even if you don't have levels in wizard, since its requirements don't force you to be a wizard. And since the feat is useless without a caster level, you must be getting a caster level from somewhere.
If you're not using your paladin or ranger caster level to cast those wizard spells, that means you'd need to be getting a usable wizard caster level from the feat itself. Since we don't have a description for a non-standard caster level (such as the paladin's caster level being equal to half her class level), you'd be using the default caster level rule that makes it equal to your class level.
So for the purpose of those wizard spells, your caster level without any actual wizard levels would be equal to either half your paladin/ranger levels, or to your full paladin/ranger levels.
The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens
= My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.Show
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. • When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. • When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. • When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. • When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. • When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
You know Slagger' that is about what I said a few post ago. The feat sets your CL to wizard levels + paladin levels + ranger levels.
What happens is that draco is just pointing out the "if you also have" can be interpreted (especially by some board members) to mean you MUST HAVE actual wizard levels to do that summation. To put things another way if you have wizard levels the CL = wiz + pal + ranger but without wizard levels CL is undefined and thus assumed to be CL 0; lets never mind that you can put 0 in the wiz slot of the equation and have it work out fine.
Wizards get spells, at least the last time I checked they do (ok there might be int 8 Wizards and why not, we have drop outs from medical school too, am I right? of course I am)
But Wizards get Spells, so 10th level Wizard will cast 4 Cantrips, 4 1st level, 4 2nd level, 3 3rd level, 3 4th level, and 2 5th level, plus bonus spells. All Wizard spells.
And a 10th Level Paladin, Mystic Fire Knight? would cast 2 1st level and 2 2nd level spells, plus bonus Spells.
These are 2 seperate Spell Slots and lists, and each class has seperate calculations for their caster levels
So what is this 20th level character's Caster level?
A Mystic Fire Knight's CL uses this formular 2 + Half Paladin Levels + Arcane Class Levels. This is without being able to cast Arcane spells.
So the above Character's spells cast from a Paladin's spell slots are 2+5+10= CL 17
What about the Wizard's CL? Lets for a moment pretend th's character never took the Sword of the Arcane Order Feat.
The Wizard's Caster Level would normally be 10. Yep in the above build the level 20 character has a CL of 10, which kinda sucks. I would recomend the feat, Practiced Spell Caster, except.....
The Feat Sword of the Arcane Order, gives the Wizard Spells (the character above has 10 levels of Wizard that has spells to cast) a CL boost, "If you also have levels in wizard, your wizard caster level is treated as the sum of your wizard, paladin, and ranger class levels."
So in the above Build the Wizard's Cast level becomes 20 (Wizard 10 + Paladin 10)
What do you get when you have levels in Wizard? You get Wizard Spells.
What is Your Wizard Caster Level? The Key word in that question is "Wizard" as in the Caster Level of Your Wizard. This feat gives the spells that come from the Wizard levels, a CL of Wizard+Paladin levels.
Otherwise, the above character would cast the arcane spells from the Paladin slots as CL 20, but be casting the Wizard spells from the Wizard clas as CL 10.
Oma, I can understand some of the confusion, but here you are combining sentences. Saying it doesn't add Wizard spells to the Paladin spell list is patently silly, because it allows Paladins to cast these "Wizard spells" in the Paladin's Spell Slots. It adds them to the Paladin spell list.
That last sentence doesn't say "the caster level of all wizard spells" what it says is your "wizard caster level" That is the caster level of your Wizard, which should be obvious by the "if you also have levels in wizard" part of that sentence.
And a huge level of redundancy, as the class already adds Arcane Levels to the CL of his spells, the last part would be a redundant addition, the Paladin already was adding any Arcane Levels to his Paladin class. So if my Paladin had Wizard levels before this feat and those levels stacked with the CL of the Paladin spells, would that make them wizard spells? Of course not.
I think we have to assume that the feat is supposed to be useful all by itself even if you don't have levels in wizard, since its requirements don't force you to be a wizard. And since the feat is useless without a caster level, you must be getting a caster level from somewhere.
If you're not using your paladin or ranger caster level to cast those wizard spells, that means you'd need to be getting a usable wizard caster level from the feat itself. Since we don't have a description for a non-standard caster level (such as the paladin's caster level being equal to half her class level), you'd be using the default caster level rule that makes it equal to your class level.
So for the purpose of those wizard spells, your caster level without any actual wizard levels would be equal to either half your paladin/ranger levels, or to your full paladin/ranger levels.
The Caster level is determined by the feat's Prerequisite in this case, Mystic Fire Knight. The Caster level is the sum of 2+half Paladin levels+any Arcane levels. It is aready a class designed for those who want to be a Paladin/Arcane Caster
The Last sentence of the feat "If you also have levels in wizard" is refering to adding the paladin levels to the CL of the spells gained by your wizard levels. As mentioned above these wizard levels are already being added to the CL of the paladin spells without the feat (via the Improved Spellcasting feature of the class) levels in Wizard would add Wizard spells.
You know Slagger' that is about what I said a few post ago. The feat sets your CL to wizard levels + paladin levels + ranger levels.
I wouldn't consider that to automatically be the case; it sets your wizard caster level to that value, but doesn't necessarily do that for the wizard spells you cast in your paladin or ranger slots if they're using your paladin or ranger caster level.
It states adding the paladin and ranger levels to any wizard level for determining your wizard caster level, but doesn't state that the reverse also applies. Any paladin or ranger spellcasting (using your paladin or ranger caster level) remains at exactly the same caster level as before you took the feat.
You've got two valid possibilities; that you gain a wizard caster level if you don't have one, orthat you use your paladin or ranger caster level for the wizard spells cast using those slots.
What happens is that draco is just pointing out the "if you also have" can be interpreted (especially by some board members) to mean you MUST HAVE actual wizard levels to do that summation. To put things another way if you have wizard levels the CL = wiz + pal + ranger but without wizard levels CL is undefined and thus assumed to be CL 0; lets never mind that you can put 0 in the wiz slot of the equation and have it work out fine.
If you have 0 levels in the wizard class, you don't have any levels in wizard. The "if" does suggest that there's another possibility; if you can have wizard levels, then it's also possible that you won't have any.
Saying it doesn't add Wizard spells to the Paladin spell list is patently silly, because it allows Paladins to cast these "Wizard spells" in the Paladin's Spell Slots. It adds them to the Paladin spell list.
Why should it need to add the spells to the paladin spell list? You already know you can use those slots to cast the spells because the feat says so (regardless of whether or not they're on your paladin spell list), and your actual knowledge of them comes from a spellbook.
The Caster level is determined by the feat's Prerequisite in this case, Mystic Fire Knight. The Caster level is the sum of 2+half Paladin levels+any Arcane levels. It is aready a class designed for those who want to be a Paladin/Arcane Caster
If you'll forgive my unfamiliarity with campaign-specific sources, the feat doesn't actually require you to have any specific abilities as a member of the orders in question, does it? The substitution levels are available, but there's nothing stopping a normal paladin with the standard class abilities from being a member of the Knights of the Mystic Fire, is there?
The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens
= My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.Show
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. • When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. • When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. • When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. • When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. • When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Why should it need to add the spells to the paladin spell list? You already know you can use those slots to cast the spells because the feat says so (regardless of whether or not they're on your paladin spell list), and your actual knowledge of them comes from a spellbook.
A Wizard's actual knowledge of spells comes from a spellbook does it not?
A Spell list is nothing more then a list of spells that you are able to prepare and cast from your spell slots. If the Paladin can cast a spell from his spell slots, then it is on his spell list (list of spells for those spell slots) And this class can obtian his own spellbook (albeit this is a real pain to do)
Generally when another classes spells are added they are treated as a seperate list of spells, ie a Cleric/Wizard would have a seperate tier of Cleric and a Tier of Wizard spell slots, each indepentant of the other. In this case the Paladin has only a single tier of spell slots, the list of spells he can cast from those slots includes both paladin spells and arcane wizard/sorceror spells.
Saying "here is the list of spells you can cast, but you don't have a spell list" is somewhat.....contradictory at best.
If you'll forgive my unfamiliarity with campaign-specific sources, the feat doesn't actually require you to have any specific abilities as a member of the orders in question, does it? The substitution levels are available, but there's nothing stopping a normal paladin with the standard class abilities from being a member of the Knights of the Mystic Fire, is there?
Under the Feat's description, Special: "Members of all three of these groups can select this feat as long as they are at least 4th level in their respective order’s primary class."
The primary class of Knights of the Mystic Fire should be Mystic Fire Knight. I think it unlikely though to have membership in this organization without the substitute level (what would be the point in joining?) but I would not insist upon the point as it isn't entirely clear. Either way the Feat is clearly designed to work with the Substitute class in the same book.
It doesn't matter really, then the CL of the Paladin's spells would be just half Paladin levels, rather then 2 + Paladin Levels + Arcane Levels. Either way the Paladin spells (arcane and divine) would have a CL without needing Wizard levels.
The final sentence is a seperate paragraph. If you have levels in Wizard, you would have wizard spells, with or without this feat. This feat would allow you to add your paladin levels to your wizard class, Caster Level. Wizard Caster Level, not "Paladin's Caster Level of Wizard Spells" Levels in wizard would give you a seperate, independent tier of wizard spells
