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Dec 16, 2012 -- 8:08AM, Yokel wrote:

Okay, so chaosfang first ran LFR. Spaceinvader say it is railroads too. 

Matyr? Nerradetrok? Did you learn to DM with publish adventures or LFR too? 

No, I did not start with LFR modules, or any premade modules.  I started DMing in a game where there really was no system and we just made up everything (game world, rules, characters) on the fly.  My first campaign as DM was in high school and we were all interested in the improv and none of us even had the actual books for 3e (which is what we were supposedly playing).  It was... Odd.

LFR is a little railroady, but that is because doing it any other way would be a really bad plan (at least at cons).  At most LFR stuff you have a great variance between DMs and the mods are supposed to be roughly the same for each playthrough and have a defined difficulty for them.  That being said, I rarely stick with the script and instead change the mod quite a bit to adjust to the player's skill level / interests. 

Dec 15, 2012 -- 5:02PM, nerraDetroK wrote:

..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />And there's the problem with Yagamifire...  no alcohol.
  Just kidding.  

Yagami, you've got some good advice on campaign building.  I used to think you just trolled everyone, but I've seen that's not true.  At this point, I'm reading through what you have to say and sifting out what I think it important from how you say it.

Thank you for the compliment. It's appreciated.

However I think a lot of this is intellectual argument, that doesn't always pan out in the real world.  Sure, it'd be nice if every DM was able to come up with exciting challenges at the players' whims, but not everyone can do that and do it well.  I also think players should have a fair amount of input in world-building, and DM's shoudl have some small control over a Character, with the understanding that neither party will intentionally screw over the other.

I think worrying about what "pans out in the real world" is foolishness. The airsoft team I play on has the motto "Perfection Tomorrow, Improvement Today" with the understanding that tomorrow will never come. We seek to constantly improve. DMs (or anyone playing a game really) should always seek to do the same or give up on criticising or playing the game. I also totally disagree that DMs should have ANY amount of control over a character if you are refering to actions or such. The PC is ENTIRELY the domain of the player. It is the PLAYERS character. It is their property. If one is worrying about an unspoken rule not to "screw over the other" then something is already wrong. This shouldn't even enter into the equation.

This is all part of the notion that one needs to balance against bad players or DMs...you can't do that. It is a design impossibility. As I said in another thread, you can't make something fool proof because they'll simply make a better fool. Instead, the game needs to be designed to operate as well as possible. Part of that is discussing the game and the approach to the game in a way that represents it being played as well as possible. Anything else is designing towards mediocrity.

I do not believe that every DM can do everything on a whim. I could not do that when I started. However, it is more important to give them tools to improve (which includes this forum and its advice) than it is to support them playing at a lower level. Can they get along at that level and improve as they go? Yes absolutely because that is reality. Should the game and other members of the game community seek to help that person improve? Yes absolutely. Instead of handing out participation trophies, we should be seeking to help everyone become an MVP. Is it possible? Of course not, there's only ever one MVP to a team...but that doesn't matter. The journey is what matters, not an impossible destination (perfection).

After all, would you want to sit down to play with a DM who outright states "Hey so you know, I've got no interest in improving how I do things."? I would hope the answer would be "of course not".

If Matyr and his group are having fun playing D&D, then that's great.  
Based on what I've read of a LOT of poster's games, I would not have fun playing in their worlds/games. When LunarSavage was still posting, there was NO way I would have played in one of his games, but it sure sounded like he and his players had a blast with it.

I would say this is impossible to know until you play it (that type of game that is). I can describe various food to you all day and part of it may disgust you...however description is a poor substitute for experience.

There isn't one right way to play D&D.  There is a wrong way, and that's for DM's to lay out specific tracks and tell players this is what's going to happen today and I'll have my super-powerful DMPC save the day.  I think we can all agree on that.

There are many wrong ways to play D&D. In fact, I'm going to have a post challenging that very soon.

Not all DM's are good at improvising and coming up with new encounters on the fly.  It's a skill that needs to be learned, and more DM's need to try it. I have a session tomorrow that I'm planning for.  So far I have: they can continue in to the cave looking for the merchant that they were asked to find, or they can skip it and move on.  I've got stuff in my head as to what will happen if they DO continue in the cave, and some alternate idea if they continue on.  And I've got a basic monster template to try and make stuff up on the fly.  I hope it's a fun day for the players.

I entirely agree with the first sentence of that quote. However, it (improvisation) IS the most important skill a DM can have while balancing that improvisation with fairness. Because of this, the game and its community should seek to help players reach a perfect level of improvisation...seeking less is to reinforce something less than ideal and there's no point to that.

Dec 17, 2012 -- 10:18AM, nerraDetroK wrote:

..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />@YagamiFire - When I say the DM has some control over the character, I definitely do NOT advocate that a DM should ever say what a character does.  Never the actions.  What I mean is that the DM may insert some NPC with a connection to the PC's background, depending on what that background is.  And it's always something that can be tossed aside if the PC doesn't want to use it.   Usually things like old friends, relatives, etc.  Someone the PC may have a strong feeling towards, but maybe not.  If the PC doesn't care, then it's likely just a case of Mistaken Identity and we move on to something else.

Ah I understand now.

What I'm seeing so far, with just a few sessions with this new game, is that the PC's don't seem to have any plans for what they want to do.  They have some history of who the character was, and some idea of who they want the character to become,  but nothing in the way of how the character changes, where they will go and what they will do to get there.  So, I'm providing a little direction for them by having adventures/quests offered to them. 

I think you are treating a symptom then rather than the problem. If your players start aimless it will be very easy for them to remain aimless. I find that often because of too much focus on character builds, mechanics and optimization etc that the actual CHARACTER part of "character sheet" falls through. The PCs are adventurers...them having no plans means they either do not understand the world thoroughly enough or that they do not understand their characters well enough. From your description it seems like the former. Players are generally either paralyzed by infinite choice (when they do not understand their character well enough to decide where or what to do given unlimited options) or are paralyzed by the mistaken belief that they have no choice and that something is being presented to them. Either is highly problematic. The first may lead to random acting out...and the second may lead to complete and total lack of motivation requiring the DM to essentially narrate the players actions.

I think your players need to know more about the world so that they can try and figure out how they fit into it and how they want to tackle it.