As far as the quantum metal goes here is the deal:
Whether or not they encounter the metal is not the part I want to know. It is what they do with it if they find it. So where/why/how/who was carrying etc will all change that answer, but the core question remains the same.
You want to know? Again, you seem to WANT a lot.
No negative impact? It killed a villager and they were out a good chunk of money and some other stuff.
They might not care about the villager and in the same amount of time they may have earned just as much or more money doing something else.
Why not have something different on each road? That hurts the underlying question for one. But more importantly it is much simpler and easier to build one encounter rather than 4. Edit: I believe you said above at one point "work smart, not hard".
Underlying question? Ah the one you WANT them to answer?
And simpler & easier? Yes, crutches are. It IS simpler and easier to railroad your players. I agree. Never disagreed with that one. It is definitely easier.
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One of my players, Walter, ALWAYS tries to order Daktar (Hobgoblin) wine at bars because when he met and befriended a group of hobgoblins in game he drank with them and my description of wine apparently sounded delicious to the player so he decided his character really liked it. Kinda funny considering I've never had alcohol but apparently I can describe a yummy wine. Go figure.
So yes, his decision about what to order is VERY important to him because it has to do with his character and his characters preferences.
So it's important to him. In the grand scheme of things it makes no difference to the plot unless you make it do so. For example if the barman's daughter had just been kidnapped by hobgoblins, such a request might start a tavern brawl. But usually, it will make no real difference; either he will get his preferred drink of choice or he will be told that they don't serve it. Tough cookies. Player decisions only matter if you make them matter, as I said before but not every decisions has to effect the plot of any given session, let alone the whole campaign.
Also, I can disprove that even more simply: All those things might cost different amounts. Hence the choice matters to their pocketbook.
After level one such payment are rediculously small (as in talking copper and silver pieces). Forcing players to keep track of such demoninations is bordering on asinine.
Man, these are softball lobs over the plate...keep 'em coming!
I assume this is some American referrence, I could not possibly comment.
Underlying question? Ah the one you WANT them to answer?
And simpler & easier? Yes, crutches are. It IS simpler and easier to railroad your players. I agree. Never disagreed with that one. It is definitely easier.
Yes, as the DM of the game I am interested in seeing the decisions of my players. I would like to see how they react to my prompts and prompts they supply. It is what makes DMing fun.
Railroad them into what I want: Easy Use Ichoice to introduce them to things from their background / things in the world / Extra points where Im curious what they will do: Medium Let them go anywhere and adjust to everything on the fly: Hard.
Can you make a perfectly balanced, seat of your chair, mechanically full fight on the fly? Yes. Should you have to do that every time (and then watch it fall flat if you do it poorly, or have to mcguffin them out of there should they fall flat)? Nope.
What you call a crutch, I call a tool. Sorry you don't like how my game is run .
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here Spoiler:Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />So it's important to him. In the grand scheme of things it makes no difference to the plot unless you make it do so. For example if the barman's daughter had just been kidnapped by hobgoblins, such a request might start a tavern brawl. But usually, it will make no real difference; either he will get his preferred drink of choice or he will be told that they don't serve it. Tough cookies. Player decisions only matter if you make them matter, as I said before but not every decisions has to effect the plot of any given session, let alone the whole campaign.
In the grand scheme of things your plot is better left in a novel especially if the players don't care.
Player choice ALWAYS matters. Your obsession with a 'plot' you are creating is the only way it wouldn't. Stop worrying about plot. It is not YOUR plot. It is the players story.
After level one such payment are rediculously small (as in talking copper and silver pieces). Forcing players to keep track of such demoninations is bordering on asinine.
I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end.
If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it. #SuperDungeonMasterIITurbo
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" class="mceContentBody " contenteditable="true" />Yes, as the DM of the game I am interested in seeing the decisions of my players. I would like to see how they react to my prompts and prompts they supply. It is what makes DMing fun.
The decisions relevant to you. The things you care about. The stops on the railroad. Choo choo. Gotcha.
Railroad them into what I want: Easy
Just do this then.
Use Ichoice to introduce them to things from their background / things in the world / Extra points where Im curious what they will do: Medium
So...still railroad them but lie to them about railroading them. Okay.
Let them go anywhere and adjust to everything on the fly: Hard.
Unless you develop a skill and tool set that lets you do this instead of the skillset of deception and railroading.
Can you make a perfectly balanced, seat of your chair, mechanically full fight on the fly? Yes. Should you have to do that every time (and then watch it fall flat if you do it poorly, or have to mcguffin them out of there should they fall flat)? Nope.
Why should I obsesss over perfect mechanical balance?
What you call a crutch, I call a tool. Sorry you don't like how my game is run .
It's okay. I'm not playing in it.
I just call out railroading when I see it.
I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end.
If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it. #SuperDungeonMasterIITurbo
If by subverted you mean they went outside of the reasonable perameters for them to engage in the Ichoice, then yes. But that also means they had something they really wanted to do going on, so it doesn't matter what side stuff I have for them to explore because they have something they want to do that is independent of it.
So... why haven't you been catering to them from the start, then?
In the grand scheme of things your plot is better left in a novel especially if the players don't care.
Player choice ALWAYS matters. Your obsession with a 'plot' you are creating is the only way it wouldn't. Stop worrying about plot. It is not YOUR plot. It is the players story.
This, people, is the main reason why we're having this debate in the first place. What we perceive as the "right" way of DMing is that even though the DM is the narrator, he's not supposed to be narrating what he wants, but rather what his players want. Now if it just so happens that his players want him to narrate his story then all the better, but the default assumption should be that this is false.
Yes, as the DM of the game I am interested in seeing the decisions of my players. I would like to see how they react to my prompts and prompts they supply. It is what makes DMing fun.
Railroad them into what I want: Easy Use Ichoice to introduce them to things from their background / things in the world / Extra points where Im curious what they will do: Medium Let them go anywhere and adjust to everything on the fly: Hard.
Strangely, I find that, as a DM, I enjoy what you consider "hard" as the most enjoyable and the most rewarding. Is that because I'm masochistic, or is it because I find it exciting to actually look forward to what the players do next?
Can you make a perfectly balanced, seat of your chair, mechanically full fight on the fly? Yes. Should you have to do that every time (and then watch it fall flat if you do it poorly, or have to mcguffin them out of there should they fall flat)? Nope.
I fail to see how you can repeatedly make perfect fights and then suddenly fail at it. You set about the definition of the "perfect" fight and then it gets destroyed because of... poor performance? DM fiat? If that was the case, then the first run of the fight would've ended up with poor performance or forcing the DM to pull a deus ex machina, with the next fights actually improving in chances for the PCs to win because the players would now know what you regularly pull off and how to do it.
Personally as a player if a DM outright told me that all the options I had were virtually the same but with tiny yet (supposedly significant) differences, I'd eventually try my best to create a scenario where the DM had no choice but to change the story significantly enough. Not because I dislike the DM's story per se, but frankly I already have computer RPGs that give me that experience. I play because I want a more organic sort of story development, where my character's story actually matters.
Heck, that's kinda why I'm sad nobody's DMing 13th Age for me
EDIT: I suppose it's my experiences with Living Forgotten Realms (both good and bad) that makes me really dislike railroading (regardless of name). It's a "safe" way of doing things yes, but it's... I dunno, amateurish? Unprofessional? Too computer-RPG-like? Dishonest? In any case, I've done my railroading before, and I'm kinda forced to continue railroading a bit with the Epic LFR group I'm DMing, but in all honesty I dislike railroading, and if it were only possible to go MYRE at Epic I would've done so. Then again, 13th Age gives me something to look forward to whenever I DM it
You are both rational and emotional. You value creation and discovery, and feel strongly about what you create. At best, you're innovative and intuitive. At worst, you're scattered and unpredictable.
If you're crossing the street and see a city bus barreling straight toward you with 'GIVE ME YOUR WALLET!' painted across its windshield, you probably won't be reaching for your wallet.
This is what I believe is the spirit of D&D 4E, and my deal breaker for D&D Next: equal opportunities, with distinct specializations, in areas where conflict happens the most often, without having to worry about heavy micromanagement or system mastery.
For every DM that advocates removal or decrease of player agency, there is one more reason for all of the players that have posted about DMs taking away their ability to play the game to be worried. I would respond to the last few posts, but Yagami and Chaosfang both have said what I would, either just as good or better. It wasn't too long ago that I thought rail-roading DMs where more or less a myth.
I don't understand how it is that people equate "railroading" or "illusion of choice" to "sin". It astounds me. If the players are aware and everybody in the group agrees to using these methods, then what is so wrong?
Also, I don't get how Matyr's example scenario is "railroading". Let's have a look at the bigger picture here:
There are 6 paths to choose from, all leading to different destinations. In 4 of them, the PCs encounter creatures, which appear in either path (the one the PCs choose, invariably), but not the others (the ones the PCs did not choose). I don't think it has been said, but I can safely assume that all four of those paths lead to different places. One might lead to a city, another to a forest, for example. It just so happens that no matter which one the players take, they will encounter creatures. Yet, in the end, it doesn't really matter.
What really matters is what the players did choose: the destination. The players didn't make their decision based on what they'd encounter. They said "We want to explore the forest!" or "We should check out the city, maybe buy some stuff!" The creature encounter is more or less filler (for lack of a better word), with a plot hook (which the players may choose to ignore), situated between places.
So we can then say that player agency was not removed simply because Matyr decided that an encounter would invariably happen at certain points; more often not, players don't get to choose when or if they encounter anything. He did present them with the choice of multiple destinations, which is something players can and should choose. What happens between those places is not up to them to decide. On top of that, he also lets the players choose how they approach the encounter, with the possibility of cleverly avoiding it. I have no idea how one could interpret this as "railroading".
Heck were it up to me, I might have put those velociraptors in every path. "What are velociraptors doing in a boat?" "Whoa, there's some mithral in this cave, but packs of velociraptors live here!" Both are potentially interesting starting points for adventures.
What would have constituted railroading? Well, if the players, before the game started, explicitly stated they didn't want to fight velociraptors, but Matyr had them fight some anyways, that would be railroading. If the players wanted to go into the cave, but Matyr flat out said "No, you must go to the forest!", that would be as well. I saw none of that. To be honest, I'm not entirely convinced he (or anybody so far, for that matter) is using the term "illusion of choice" in the proper context (no offence meant).
It seems to me like some people are taking offence to his style of play and trying to discredit it through association with something that has a negative connotation, by cherry-picking a specific instance and ignoring the bigger picture. Let's not forget that different playstyles cater to different players. There is no reasonable argument or debate to be had by continuing this line of thought; only emotions running wild and not thinking things through properly.
Ty Shire, I was starting to think Fardiz and I might actually just be loopy.
The other big bit is assuming the players don't have input or agency in what they are doing. Like you said, there are different things at the ends of those roads. Maybe the group has decided they want some political intrigue and are headed for Knine to jump into the Game of Houses. Maybe they want to get into the seedy underbelly of Osrin and see how far down the rabbit hole goes. Maybe their minds are full questions as to what lays in the deep parts of the dreaded Hylar jungle. But down each of those paths lies one other thing, a wounded creature. A wounded creature with a particularly valuable wound that they may be able to use, to one end or another, in their quest for glory / honor / fame / fortune or infamy.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here Spoiler:Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end.
If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it. #SuperDungeonMasterIITurbo
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