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Dungeons & Dra.. What's a DM to Do? DM problem - low level PC killing people they...
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6 months ago  ::  Nov 28, 2012 - 5:23PM #1
Kailmung
Date Joined: Nov 28, 2012
Posts: 84
In my homebrew world that I have been running for a couple months now I have run to a small problem that I need advice on how to stop.

The party, unknown to them, killed off a major part of the story I was constructing. Basically in some instances my party has out smarted me. They came across an old run down fort that a group of orcs was using as a staging ground. The group saw a horse tied up outside of the main gates. The cleric would not let them outright kill the horse. So the thief, who was a halfling, got under the horse and unbuckled the saddle before they went inside.

After a clearing out the inner workings of the fort and chasing the "boss" outisde as he was fleeing. He fell off the horse and was knocked out. The party then killed him off. He was a level 6 half orc warrior, the party was at the time level 1, almost level 2.

So I reworte a few things in my story, it is an odd complicated story. Basically a lich is tricking the orcs into going to war with the elves. The lich just wants a select few elves dead as they were the ones that killed him when he was alive. But over time he has grown to hate all elves. That is the short version.

Anyways, I decided to show a little more of my hand, and had a Death Knight attack a cleric that the party was guarding on his way back to the capital city. The party ignored the skeletons and undead troll the Death Knight had with him, and went right at the knight. Thankfully none of them hit him so he basically ignored them as he pushed forward towards the cleric.

So what would be a good way to discourage these player from attacking people and things they has no business in doing so without out right telling them, you can't kill him, you should run in terror ... or at most try and talk to him.
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6 months ago  ::  Nov 28, 2012 - 5:47PM #2
Matyr
Date Joined: Jun 19, 2004
Posts: 2,726
Mostly the answer to this is to be a better DM.  If your game world has your favorite toys and you don't want the PCs to break them, don't have the PCs interact with them at all.

The story should be about the PCs at some point and if you allow them to kill it they will.  One of the major problems with setting strong rails on your story is that your PCs can sometimes break the rails. When they do they either go off track and since you are heavily planning things its really hard to adapt, or they break some link in the chain of the story you want to tell.

The key is to make sure your story can evolve without links you put in front of your players.  If you stick the Knight in front of them, let the PCs actually try to harm him, it should be great if they hurt or kill him and not distressing.  Then see what your story looks like with the new hole in it.  What comes in to fill that void?

Also, don't treat death as final.  In most magical settings things that die have a way of coming back to bite you in the butt later on.  They killed your Orc... did they salt and burn the bodies?  Cause if not it might be time to go a-haunting.
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6 months ago  ::  Nov 28, 2012 - 6:04PM #3
Kailmung
Date Joined: Nov 28, 2012
Posts: 84
The story is about the PCs, and how they stumbled onto a scheme by a Orc King to wipe out all Elves.

I did rewrite things, actually made the story better.  That really isn't my problem.

It is how to get the PCs to know their limits to certain degree, with out making it feel like I am handcuffing them. I just don't want the PCs to go dragon hunting, get killed and blame me for it.

I have a few random dungeon crawls set up to get the PCs some levels to make some up coming fights seem more epic.
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />Had thought about the idea of bringing the Orc back to life, but that seems kinda hookey.

Not sure I have a real solution to this problem.
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6 months ago  ::  Nov 28, 2012 - 6:15PM #4
Matyr
Date Joined: Jun 19, 2004
Posts: 2,726
If you want to show the PCs that there is stronger stuff around, having them fight on the side of a powerful ally, or getting a patron works well.

And no need for the orc to be back and fine.  Make it the orc's zombified remains, or he returns as a wight.  Or maybe as a revenant or other creature.  Maybe the Orc is even more important than they thought and is tied to the Liche's phylactery.

A way to help show your PCs where their strength isn't is through alternate fights and alternate win conditions.  Have something timed where they know they need to defeat something in X amount of time or Y bad thing happens.  Or have them go into a dream sequence, a prophet shows them a vision of their future selves.  Or have them meet someone on the road who warns them of being too rash and when they get to fighting something huge and murderously above their pay-grade have the wandering person be a friendly shape-shifted metallic dragon or other powerful creature.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender.  Check it out here
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running?  Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with?  Check out the Pregen thread here
If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here
Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing".  You can check that out here
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6 months ago  ::  Nov 28, 2012 - 8:25PM #5
evildungeonmaster
Date Joined: Sep 17, 2012
Posts: 135
Next time they pick a fight with something they shouldn't just make sure the stats prevent them from killing it outright.  Obviously you can't go back now, but if you are rolling behind a screen, then there was no reason they should have been able to kill or even knockout your orc.  He falls off the horse, sure.  Maybe he even cracks his skull, but in the end you could always tell them he picked himself up, cursed the players and climbed aboard one of his henchman's horses... Or retreated behind a wall minions that prevent the players from gettnig right to him.  I used to spend hours working up a NPC baddie only to have players call a critical shot to the eye and kill them in the first round.  Damn, I would think, there's a lot of work down the tube.   Now that same baddie would laugh and pop out his glass eye, or fall down a crevasse only to return later to harass them again.  Flying creatures and NPCs have an easy solution to escape, and magic spells or items can always be used to turn someone invisible long enough to escape or even teleport away. 
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6 months ago  ::  Nov 28, 2012 - 8:29PM #6
SwampDog
Date Joined: Jan 2, 2011
Posts: 405
Use an old tv/movie trope:  have the badass demonstrate by cruelly and easily destroying some NPC in plain sight of the (viewer) party.   Before that happens, have the doomed NPC display some measure of power or competence equal to the average PC.
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6 months ago  ::  Nov 28, 2012 - 8:30PM #7
1red13
Date Joined: Sep 30, 2006
Posts: 369
Many times if you place something into the story as an obstacle by default many pcs will assume that creature is there to be overcome and that the dm wouldn't put an unwinnable situation in their path.

Is that realistic?  No.  Realism has to be balanced against the fun of the game. If pcs assume everything is tougher than them they don't feel all that heroic or powerful which isn't terribly rewarding

A display of power at a distance against opponents they know to be more powerful than themselves may help.  They know they have to be more cautious but it provides a goal for them to aspire to.
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6 months ago  ::  Nov 28, 2012 - 9:05PM #8
aaronil
Date Joined: Sep 7, 2009
Posts: 117

Nov 28, 2012 -- 6:04PM, Kailmung wrote:

The story is about the PCs, and how they stumbled onto a scheme by a Orc King to wipe out all Elves.

I did rewrite things, actually made the story better.  That really isn't my problem.

It is how to get the PCs to know their limits to certain degree, with out making it feel like I am handcuffing them. I just don't want the PCs to go dragon hunting, get killed and blame me for it.

I have a few random dungeon crawls set up to get the PCs some levels to make some up coming fights seem more epic.
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />Had thought about the idea of bringing the Orc back to life, but that seems kinda hookey.

Not sure I have a real solution to this problem.



Come on, getting your players to flee as DM agenda? That's silly. Most of the players I've gamed with don't have "run away" in their vocabulary - it's a common theme in role-playing groups and should come as no surprise to you.

The problem is that with the examples you give, it's not the players seeking out extreme/impossible challenges. You're the one bringing those challenges - the death knight, for instance - to their doorstep. *Of course* they're going to fight on the behalf of a beloved NPC cleric.

Now, assuming it were the players actually seeking out extreme challenges then that's a perfectly acceptable playstyle. It requires a bit more transparency from the DM and a player willingness to tempt death, but I would say go for it!

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6 months ago  ::  Nov 28, 2012 - 9:17PM #9
Centauri
Date Joined: Jul 21, 2004
Posts: 9,679
Not everything has to have stats. Not every encounter has to be about one side dying, retreating or being captured.

If you don't want something to be killed, don't give it stats. Make the challenge of the encounter be about whatever you actually want it to be about - a chase, an escape, a puzzle, or whatever - and run it as a skill challenge or as something else other than raw combat.

Forget about your story. Players don't care. If you want them to care, build the story with them, and find out that way how they want to be challenged.
[N]o difference is less easily overcome than the difference of opinion about semi-abstract questions. - L. Tolstoy
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6 months ago  ::  Nov 28, 2012 - 9:45PM #10
Salla
Date Joined: Apr 3, 2003
Posts: 23,524
The answer is simple.  If it's not intended to be fought, then it's not a combat encounter, and you don't dress it as one.

No rolling for initiative, no attack rolls ... just narrate how their feeble attacks bounce off his armor, and he backhands someone effortlessly, sending them sprawling on the floor.  For most gamers, the mantra is 'if it has stats, we can kill it'.

So don't give it stats.
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