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Dec 14, 2012 -- 3:15PM, Matyr wrote:

^.  See what I meant about Ichoice being unpopular around these parts?  Offhandedly throwing it away as a useful option and giving it as a definition of railroading.  How quaint.

Considering it IS a definition of railroading...well...it kinda does it itself.

After all, it's lying to the players.

Dec 14, 2012 -- 3:38PM, Matyr wrote:

Dec 14, 2012 -- 3:30PM, YagamiFire wrote:

Dec 14, 2012 -- 3:15PM, Matyr wrote:

^.  See what I meant about Ichoice being unpopular around these parts?  Offhandedly throwing it away as a useful option and giving it as a definition of railroading.  How quaint.

Considering it IS a definition of railroading...well...it kinda does it itself.

After all, it's lying to the players.

Of course it is!  How did I not see this before?  My life is full of happiness and sunflowers now that I have come around to your way of thinking...

Oh, wait no I'm still going with "there are lots of ways to play and run the game, run the game that is fun for your players as priority #1 and fun for you as priority #2".

Sure. If you have the most fun crafting an illusion of your players having full agency while you play magician-switch with them then more power to you.

If/When that illusion is broken, however, things might not be so peachy.

Dec 14, 2012 -- 3:50PM, Matyr wrote:

Man that would be a huge problem if my players didn't already know about me using Ichoice on an occaisonal basis... oh wait no they actually know and think it works well.  Hmm.. well there goes that idea.

I've never advocated for taking agency away from the players on a large scale.  Just making encounters / props / elements you want your players to interact with mutable to the point where they will get the chance to see things in the gameplay.  I don't use it for every encounter, every session or even every level of play.  Its just a tool to help incorporate things from the world into the PC's path. 

Crutch. The word you're looking for is "crutch". It is more precise than saying "tool".

What your post boils down to is that sometimes your players are going to damn well see what you lovingly expertly crafted and come hell or high water, regardless what they choose, they're going to damn well get to that point to experience it.

Railroading.

Gotcha. I understand.

I also understand it makes you feel "dirty" to realize that or to have it put in plain language...but it is what it is. You use the illusion of choice to have your players run into something you have "scripted". That is a textbook example of railroading.

Dec 14, 2012 -- 3:53PM, YagamiFire wrote:

What your post boils down to is that sometimes your players are going to damn well see what you lovingly expertly crafted and come hell or high water, regardless what they choose, they're going to damn well get to that point to experience it.

Railroading.

Gotcha. I understand.

I also understand it makes you feel "dirty" to realize that or to have it put in plain language...but it is what it is. You use the illusion of choice to have your players run into something you have "scripted". That is a textbook example of railroading.

Which would be a great example if the players were forced through encounters /set pieces and information instead of merely introduced to them.  It would also make LOADS of sense of I didn't build these set pieces (after the first level or two) completely around what the players want to see.

You are right, I want the players to be able to interact with the encounter that I built to further their objectives for their PC.  Now, whether they choose to do it or not is entirely up to them, but where the encounter actually is in the game world / storyline is the Illusion.

I'd give an example of good vs bad Ichoice if I thought anyone wouldn't both label them as bad without giving thought either way .

Dec 14, 2012 -- 4:06PM, Matyr wrote:

Dec 14, 2012 -- 3:53PM, YagamiFire wrote:

What your post boils down to is that sometimes your players are going to damn well see what you lovingly expertly crafted and come hell or high water, regardless what they choose, they're going to damn well get to that point to experience it.

Railroading.

Gotcha. I understand.

I also understand it makes you feel "dirty" to realize that or to have it put in plain language...but it is what it is. You use the illusion of choice to have your players run into something you have "scripted". That is a textbook example of railroading.

Which would be a great example if the players were forced through encounters /set pieces and information instead of merely introduced to them.  It would also make LOADS of sense of I didn't build these set pieces (after the first level or two) completely around what the players want to see.

You are right, I want the players to be able to interact with the encounter that I built to further their objectives for their PC.  Now, whether they choose to do it or not is entirely up to them, but where the encounter actually is in the game world / storyline is the Illusion.

I'd give an example of good vs bad Ichoice if I thought anyone wouldn't both label them as bad without giving thought either way .

If at any point, a choice presented to me doesn't actually matter, then it's bad. Since that is the nature of railroading (iChoice) then yes it's inherently bad.