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6 months ago ::
Nov 29, 2012 - 8:57AM
#21
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Date Joined:
Jul 21, 2004
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He's unhappy that he constantly gets high results for his knowledge check rolls and most if not all of the information.
The knowledge checks should not be the challenge. Indeed at that level, I would likely never have him roll (i.e. just provide the information), and provide a challenge via other means.
Now, if the player simply desires knowledge related challenges, this can still be done. Example from Raiders of the Lost Ark:
"While deciphering the markings on the headpiece, Indiana and Sallah realize that the Nazis have miscalculated the location of the Well of Souls. Using this to their advantage, they infiltrate the Nazi dig and use the Staff of Ra to determine the location correctly and uncover the Well of Souls, which is filled with snakes. Indiana fends off the snakes and acquires the Ark"
Although this scenario involves knowledge a great deal, very little of the challenge involved knowledge.
This answer is perfect. Just because someone knows something doesn't mean that doing anything about it is easy. Don't make the challenge just about the DC, but about either being able to make the check in the first place, or utilizing the information garnered by the check.
Here's something else to consider: In that example, Indy and Salla are just standing around thinking and talking. But Indy (and other smart adventuring characters) are often called upon to use their knowledge in stressful situations (which is the only time dice should be rolled anyway). Play this up, and don't let the character just stand around making knowledge checks. Some knowledge checks can only be made from certain locations, such as in front of an inscription or within short range of the effect under study (see, for example the demonic portal challenge in Dungeon Delve 11 and DMG 2). Getting to and staying in those locations in combat becomes the challenge.
Pile on penalties. Loud noises, heady vapors, hypnotic chanting, dazzling lights, poisons, diseases etc. can penalize skill checks, and multiple penalties always combine. You don't have to do this in every encounter, but if knowledge is going to play an important role, then it's appropriate to challenge it. The monsters themselves might even know that it's important to disrupt this guy's ability to spout knowledge, and specifically try to neutralize him.
Make it cost. Sure, just recalling information is a free action, but there's plenty of precedence for knowledge skills actually involving action. It's okay to give the player a choice between using a standard action on an attack or on figuring out the effect that gives the monster the ability to teleport around the room. Along those lines, it's also acceptable to make it a skill challenge. In that case, even if you limit the character to a single free action (which is the DM's prerogative), and even if the player converts all his actions to take more arcana checks, it's still going to take him at least a full round to make all the checks required in challenge. Which, if he can only make them while standing in a pool of acid in full view of the enemy, might make it a bit challenging.
[N]o difference is less easily overcome than the difference of opinion about semi-abstract questions. - L. Tolstoy
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6 months ago ::
Nov 29, 2012 - 10:16AM
#22
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Date Joined:
Mar 28, 2010
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He's unhappy that he constantly gets high results for his knowledge check rolls and most if not all of the information.
The knowledge checks should not be the challenge. Indeed at that level, I would likely never have him roll (i.e. just provide the information), and provide a challenge via other means.
Now, if the player simply desires knowledge related challenges, this can still be done. Example from Raiders of the Lost Ark:
"While deciphering the markings on the headpiece, Indiana and Sallah realize that the Nazis have miscalculated the location of the Well of Souls. Using this to their advantage, they infiltrate the Nazi dig and use the Staff of Ra to determine the location correctly and uncover the Well of Souls, which is filled with snakes. Indiana fends off the snakes and acquires the Ark"
Although this scenario involves knowledge a great deal, very little of the challenge involved knowledge.
This answer is perfect. Just because someone knows something doesn't mean that doing anything about it is easy. Don't make the challenge just about the DC, but about either being able to make the check in the first place, or utilizing the information garnered by the check.
Here's something else to consider: In that example, Indy and Salla are just standing around thinking and talking. But Indy (and other smart adventuring characters) are often called upon to use their knowledge in stressful situations (which is the only time dice should be rolled anyway). Play this up, and don't let the character just stand around making knowledge checks. Some knowledge checks can only be made from certain locations, such as in front of an inscription or within short range of the effect under study (see, for example the demonic portal challenge in Dungeon Delve 11 and DMG 2). Getting to and staying in those locations in combat becomes the challenge.
Pile on penalties. Loud noises, heady vapors, hypnotic chanting, dazzling lights, poisons, diseases etc. can penalize skill checks, and multiple penalties always combine. You don't have to do this in every encounter, but if knowledge is going to play an important role, then it's appropriate to challenge it. The monsters themselves might even know that it's important to disrupt this guy's ability to spout knowledge, and specifically try to neutralize him.
Make it cost. Sure, just recalling information is a free action, but there's plenty of precedence for knowledge skills actually involving action. It's okay to give the player a choice between using a standard action on an attack or on figuring out the effect that gives the monster the ability to teleport around the room. Along those lines, it's also acceptable to make it a skill challenge. In that case, even if you limit the character to a single free action (which is the DM's prerogative), and even if the player converts all his actions to take more arcana checks, it's still going to take him at least a full round to make all the checks required in challenge. Which, if he can only make them while standing in a pool of acid in full view of the enemy, might make it a bit challenging.
Thanks for your post Centauri, I've given the player the options suggested and I'll see what he says. I can and will make an effort to try out the above though as that adds more layers to the game and more life at the table.
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"
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6 months ago ::
Nov 29, 2012 - 12:09PM
#23
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2004
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I would appreciate a little more guidance with maybe some examples of using this kind of strategy.
Some examples:
- Start adventures say, by stating that some impossibly hard research has allowed him to discover a secret underground warren. It's technically just fluff (no XP or roll), but it's PC relevant fluff that should make him feel good about his PC's mental prowess.
- Skip knowledge rolls and just provide the information (again, much like fluff). If it's something that a different character should know, you can describe them as knowing it instead.
- Don't award skill challenge successes for auto-knowledge (or just be okwith some skill challenges not requiring as many rolls). If you are using a pre-made skill challenge that involve knowledge check, continue as if it was successful (but award no success to the tally... instead add another opportunity for success with a different skill).
- Occasionally allow the PC something fantastic, like access to the Monster Manual stats/description for a creature.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 29, 2012 - 12:25PM
#24
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Date Joined:
Mar 28, 2010
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thanks mcvincent ! I'm still waiting for the player to respond but this could help.
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"
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6 months ago ::
Nov 29, 2012 - 12:41PM
#25
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Sounds like your group is experiencing a bit of the "Skill Paradox" (a player invests in a skill because it's an area of the game they want to spend more time on, ironically leading to faster task resolution via skill check). I imagine what your player wants is more time spent on knowledge-themed challenges, much as @mvincent points out. My advice is the same:
Create logic puzzles based on lore the wizard PC uncovers
Use the wizard's knowledge as background leading to their next adventure
Have the wizard discover a great historical/archaeological find which fills in gaps in the campaign world's history, or discover treasure which at face value is worth very little but to the right collector could be worth a fortune
Present subtle clues, like ancient coinage types, recurring names ancient dead wizards, and other things that only someone highly trained in knowledge skills would pick up on
Introduce forbidden tomes of lore in a dungeon (these offer permanent +2 modifiers to knowledge skills pertaining to their specific topic, but have a magical curse connected to them)
Present a puzzle/trap which requires the Wizard's knowledge...and requires taking action on that knowledge, e.g. statues which must have the right order of spells cast upon them (great, so the wizard knows the order...but he lacks some of the spells)
Have the Wizard's knowledge check open up a moral dilemma...for example uncovering history that disgraces the paladin's family...should it be revealed or kept secret?
Etc.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 29, 2012 - 12:51PM
#26
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Date Joined:
Mar 28, 2010
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thanks for your post aaronil, good examples all around and sure to give me ideas to try !
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"
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6 months ago ::
Nov 29, 2012 - 2:16PM
#27
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Date Joined:
Oct 24, 2001
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This is not a problem. This is an opportunity. It is an in-game justification for anyone at the table knowing anything about the monsters. I like it when the scholar in the party gets a high roll, because I can very quickly strike a bit of fear into everyone as I recite the powers.
And that's what I do, the problem, if you read through the rest of the post, is that the player is unhappy with this. Not me. He's unhappy that he constantly gets high results for his knowledge check rolls and most if not all of the information.
Doh! I am sorry for not respecting your post enough to read all of it before shooting my mouth off. And thank you for your measured and patient response.
Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion: - Three Basic Rules (p 11)
- Power Types and Usage (p 54)
- Skills (p178-179)
- Feats (p 192)
- Rest and Recovery (p 263)
- All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)
A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 29, 2012 - 2:30PM
#28
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Date Joined:
Mar 28, 2010
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no problem at all Seeker95, I didn't take any offense.
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"
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6 months ago ::
Nov 30, 2012 - 1:59PM
#29
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Date Joined:
May 14, 2012
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About having different DC for different characters: The Wizard has just read a lot of books. If it is a rare monster in the forest it might be poorly described in books and there might be no drawings of it. Thus, take a look at what kind of die roll a hard DC would normally require, and adjust the DC for the nature check so that the hard DC actually is hard. On the other hand, the party ranger might have met a similar monster or heard second- or thirdhand about it, and the DC might then be adjusted so it has a similar chance of success. Of course, talk to all of your players before doing that kind of thing. Do the other player's like having the wizard taking care of all the knowledge checks, or are they perhaps frustrated that knowledge checks are "wizardtime"? Spoiler:
Show
My experience is strictly as a player (and lurker of this forum), but I lost interest in my very first character partly due to his lack of relevant skills (and more so due to a lack of personality). One time we cleared a necromancer's cave. My fighter ended up restrained in a trap with ongoing fire (but thankfully had higher regeneration value) and had to wait for the bard to make the arcana checks to let him climb up. Later they had to do arcana checks to figure out how to use a portal to get to the final battle. He just stood around spamming total defence for lack of useful options. Those are the only times I can remember D&D being boring. Fortunately, my DM convinced me to at least make a try to "push the button" to send my character through the portal, and he rolled rather high and succeed.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 30, 2012 - 2:13PM
#30
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Date Joined:
Mar 31, 2010
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About having different DC for different characters: The Wizard has just read a lot of books. If it is a rare monster in the forest it might be poorly described in books and there might be no drawings of it. Thus, take a look at what kind of die roll a hard DC would normally require, and adjust the DC for the nature check so that the hard DC actually is hard. On the other hand, the party ranger might have met a similar monster or heard second- or thirdhand about it, and the DC might then be adjusted so it has a similar chance of success. Of course, talk to all of your players before doing that kind of thing. Do the other player's like having the wizard taking care of all the knowledge checks, or are they perhaps frustrated that knowledge checks are "wizardtime"?
Spoiler:
Show
My experience is strictly as a player (and lurker of this forum), but I lost interest in my very first character partly due to his lack of relevant skills (and more so due to a lack of personality). One time we cleared a necromancer's cave. My fighter ended up restrained in a trap with ongoing fire (but thankfully had higher regeneration value) and had to wait for the bard to make the arcana checks to let him climb up. Later they had to do arcana checks to figure out how to use a portal to get to the final battle. He just stood around spamming total defence for lack of useful options. Those are the only times I can remember D&D being boring. Fortunately, my DM convinced me to at least make a try to "push the button" to send my character through the portal, and he rolled rather high and succeed.
This is one spot I feel 4e really missed the mark. Classe. Cant equally contribute outside of combat without the DM creating scenarios to do that.
If you find pkayers are bummed standing around, take a look at their char sheets and figure out how to play to their strengths.
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