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7 months ago ::
Nov 27, 2012 - 12:26PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2007
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Using playtest packet 11/13/12, and the Pre-gens.
Magic doesn't "feel" different from normal melee/missile attacks.
For example:
Human Cleric gets Lance of Faith (0-level at will): +6, range 50 feet, damage 1d8 + 4
Human Fighter gets Longbow: +7, range 150/600, damage 1d8 + 4
The differences (mechanically) a minimal at best (range, limited ammunition, etc). In play, it "feels" the same; shoot and cause the same damage.
Likewise;
Elf Wizard get Ray of Frost (0-level at will): +6, range 100 feet, damage 1d6 + 3 and reduce speed.
Mechanically almost the same. Only the slight slowing effect makes this stand out from other attacks.
In combat, all the classes suffer from the "same, same, same" syndrome.
Not sure how to "fix" this, except for the small insight Ray of Frost gives us:
- spells should do things (e.g. slow), that mundane weapons cannot.
- mundane weapons should do stuff that spells cannot (e.g. regular damage)
With 'at will' spells, the game should try harder to add distinction between spells and normal weapons...
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7 months ago ::
Nov 27, 2012 - 1:09PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Nov 18, 2007
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Hopefully they've taken a look at the Concentration thread from a few weeks ago. The "feel" difference between melee and magic is that magic can be ongoing and, of course, do things other than merely damage.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 27, 2012 - 1:39PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2007
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Hopefully they've taken a look at the Concentration thread from a few weeks ago. The "feel" difference between melee and magic is that magic can be ongoing and, of course, do things other than merely damage.
Agreed. And for most spells, this is true. However, it is the "lazer gun" spells I have issue with. I understand why they were added (to let spellcasters feel useful in a battle). But I believe if you remove the "damage" part of those spells, and 'increase' the non-damage aspect, it would keep players equally involved/useful in battle.
For example, a wizard that is able to "lock-down" groups of orcs, is just as fun as blasting them. Or a cleric who can shield/prevent damage can be just as benificial.
Let the warriors shine with damage, and let the spellcasters shine with special effects!
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7 months ago ::
Nov 27, 2012 - 3:03PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Nov 18, 2007
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Lazer gun spells never made much sense to me anyway. If I were a wizard, why would I spend ages perfecting such a spell when I could simply enchant an already-designed crossbow? Weapons are weapons because they are the best weapons.
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7 months ago ::
Dec 01, 2012 - 10:29PM
#5
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Date Joined:
May 24, 2012
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Um...how can it feel like melee when you are comparing ranged attacks? How is ranged considered melee? I dont get it.
But in all fairness its always been that way. Magic Missle 1st edition is ranged but always hit 1d4+1...throw me a bone here.
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7 months ago ::
Dec 01, 2012 - 10:43PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Nov 19, 2012
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Not sure how to "fix" this, except for the small insight Ray of Frost gives us:
- spells should do things (e.g. slow), that mundane weapons cannot.
- mundane weapons should do stuff that spells cannot (e.g. regular damage)
With 'at will' spells, the game should try harder to add distinction between spells and normal weapons...
Lance of faith deals radiant damage, whatever that means. I'm assuming bonus damage vs unholy enemies. In fact, all of the spells add some type of special damage to the dX roll.
As the above poster noted, you compared magic attacks not to melee, but to ranged. The benefits of magic (and ranged) attacks is that you don't get pelted by your target while you're attacking, as opposed to melee.
Maybe to make things different between magic and non-magic attacks, all magic should face a wisdom check and bypass AC altogether? Of course, I can already see this breaking the game.
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7 months ago ::
Dec 04, 2012 - 5:35AM
#7
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I absolutely agree. From my point of view, magic should be extraordinary. Magic should be not as common as martial art, but it should do the "wow" moments. For me, this feeling had lastly 3.5 Edition.
They say magic users (wizards, sorcerers) are too powerful when the magic is "wow", or "I win" if you will, and it's wrong design regarding to the martial fighter and similar classes. I was thinking about it, and I admit some players can feel angry when wizard excels and uses "I win button". However, 4E and Next Playtest shows when spells are very similar to martial powers or maneuvres then spells are boring, and not feeled as magic.
What is the solution of this problem? I really like the approach to spells presented in Dungeon Crawl Classics RPG (though the game is too much old-school IMO). There is not one effect of a spell, but avery spell has a few effects, and the effects are related to roll 1d10. For example:
- when you roll 1 then the effect will be bad for the caster
- when you roll 2-3 then the effect will be weak
- when 4-6 then the effect will be standard
- when you roll 7-9 then the effect will be better then usually
- when you roll 10 then the effect will be extraordinary
I like this approach really much! You cannot say Wizards are too powerful - because they have to roll high, and fighters are great as well when you roll high on attack rolls. Magic feels savage (you never know if you master it) and spells may have some cool effects when you roll 1 or 10 on d10, so it feels extraordinary.
As I said, 4E and Next spells feels too much like common martial attacks to me. No "wow" effects. DCC approach is much more charming.
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7 months ago ::
Dec 04, 2012 - 9:05PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Nov 18, 2007
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That would also present a way to scale spells. Give a level bonus to the effect dice.
The one thing I'd worry about is that it might slow down play if nobody knows what effect to read and implement until after the wizard has rolled. But at the same time, that surprise also makes for... well, surprise, which can be nice for its own sake.
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7 months ago ::
Dec 05, 2012 - 9:42AM
#9
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I for one would like to see all At Will laser gun spells removed. In my mind they blur the game play between martial and casters too much. I prefer a game where the players are more unique and the party is a sum of their weaknesses and strengths.
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7 months ago ::
Dec 06, 2012 - 11:08AM
#10
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I for one would like to see all At Will laser gun spells removed. In my mind they blur the game play between martial and casters too much. I prefer a game where the players are more unique and the party is a sum of their weaknesses and strengths.
Agreed.
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