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Switch to Forum Live View Preparing for the End of 4E
6 months ago  ::  Nov 26, 2012 - 7:31PM #1
zyraen
Date Joined: Nov 14, 2011
Posts: 141
As most of us know, and emphasised with the advent of using D&D Next to run Encounters, 4E as we know it will probably be over pretty soon. About the same time, or maybe some time after that, the 4E Online Tools like Compendium and Character Builder will likely be taken offline. (Moderators, Admins, if you have any news about WotC's concrete plans for this, feel free to post here and let the playerbase know)

Assuming that you like 4E and you would like to continue Running / Playing it, which of the following are you likely to do in Response?
1) Download the Well-Supported 3rd Party Character Builders and carry on as if Nothing Happened.
2) Stick to Books that you Have, and if any Updates are missed, so be it.
3) Save Information off Compendium, especially certainly Strong Feats, Items, PPs, EDs, etc.
4) Mix of Above 2 and 3, for all the Classes
5) Mix of Above 2 and 3, but limited to a few Classes / Sources that you like
6) Same as 4, but do a combined effort with all your Usual Group to see who really wants to carry on.
7) Stick to Books you Have, and Houserule everything else for convenience
8) Similar to what happened to 3.5E Player-base, try to find a "Replacement" 4E*. Ideally a Replacement that is very close to the original 4E, with shortcomings and all, and the full Class Selection.
9) Similar to the improvements that Pathfinder made over 3.5E, seek a Replacement that addresses the shortcomings of 4E*. This would be good even if the Class Selection is smaller and do not exactly mirror 4E.
10) You are too busy to consider Any of the Above, so abandon 4E and turn to other Pursuits, Games etc.

* - I'm not sure but I think that a fair bit of 3.5E became Open Source. However, we do not know whether this will happen with 4E.

So, which are you likely to go with? You may opt for more than 1 choice, BTW, just wondering what are the inclinations of 4E Fans as a whole.

PS : If you don't like 4E and don't want to continue playing it, feel free to ignore this Thread ^^;;

I am Blue/White

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6 months ago  ::  Nov 26, 2012 - 9:35PM #2
Clansmansix
Date Joined: Sep 23, 2008
Posts: 66
I plan on contiuing to play 4E at this point, but that could change depending on how D&D Next pans out. Right now...I'm not too optimistic. Anyway, I generally plan the following:

- Continuing to play using the offline character builder and adventure tools (both of which I had the foresight to keep). Fortunately the offline CB is still being updated by the fan community. 

- Looking for a "Replacement 4E" or retro-clone that updates, fixes, and clarifies some of the game's issues.

I am not too worried about the whole "feat tax" issue per se, though correcting some of the base math (basically +1 to attacks and defenses per tier) would be fine. I would really like to see a streamlined feat selection though. In this case, anything that gets rid of the 100 or so pre-Essentials feats that simply aren't worth taking. Post-MM3 math for monsters is right, so updating critters to that attack/defense/damage scheme would be good. Generally, I would also like to see some of the class builds refined and new (or "missing" builds, such as the Fall and Winter Sentinel, the Transmuter Mage, and so on) added.

And that's about it, really. So I guess...1 and 9, respectively. But 9 isn't a priority. Given time and some editing of the offline builder, I could come up with the builds and so forth that I want. I guess we will see what pans out! 
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6 months ago  ::  Nov 26, 2012 - 10:23PM #3
mexrage
Date Joined: Nov 30, 2010
Posts: 1,497
the hardest thing to be able to salvage is the monster database from compedium or adventure tools =/
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6 months ago  ::  Nov 26, 2012 - 10:49PM #4
zyraen
Date Joined: Nov 14, 2011
Posts: 141
Would you consider Monster Vault sufficient? Or all the cool other monsters in Adventure Tools.
I know I keep thinking about this Warlock-spell-casting, Eyebite-using Green Dragon lol...

@clansmansix
what would you consider are the game's current issues? Apart from the obvious, its creators don't want it around no more.

I am Blue/White

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6 months ago  ::  Nov 26, 2012 - 11:19PM #5
Clansmansix
Date Joined: Sep 23, 2008
Posts: 66
I think the biggest issue is the plethora of sub-par feats and powers in the game. This is a matter of simple bloat more than anything else, and some judicious trimming would solve it easily. 

The next biggest would be the lack of a few "iconic" builds, followed closely by the holes in some sub-classes build format. Namely, there are no viable archer-type fighters, transmuter mages, or Fall and Winter Sentinels. I know that the "archer" archetype is best served in 4E by the ranger, but it would be interesting to see how a defender minoring in striker could use ranged attacks to serve their role's funciton. Closely related to that, there are some classes that need "shoring up" with some new content or revised mechanics. The Seeker and the Runepriest come immediately to mind. 

The final big issue (according to many) is the base math on the PCs' end. Specifically, there is the idea that the expertise and defense-boost feats are "feat taxes" to correct an imbalance in attack and defense progression. Adding a +1 per tier to PCs' attacks and defenses automatically would serve to correct this. Now I personally have never had a problem with PCs' accuracy or defenses during gameplay as either a DM or player, so YMMV. To me, it's not really a huge issue, and the post-Essentials expertise and superior defense feats are pure gold. 

The other big complaints I hear on a regular basis are twofold. First, many state that skill challenges turn the "interaction and exploration" portion of the game into another form of combat, limit roleplaying, etc. I find that's an issue that can be fixed on the DM's side of the screen - most of the time my players don't realize they are in a skill challenge situation until it is nearly done. The other is that rituals are a great idea that just doesn't work. I find that is best fixed on the players' side of the screen. As long as the players remember to use these resources, they can be a great help. I think that if the DM gives out a few "free" rituals (i.e. handwaves the component cost a few times) the players will get more mileage out of them. 

Personally, I think that some attacks (petrification, death gazes, certain poison attacks) should be much more dangerous than they are currently but not to the point of 3E and before's "instant win" buttons. I find the best way to handle that is to reduce the number of failed saves needed to trigger the end effect (petrification, death, etc) while making the saves to shrug the effect off a continuum rather than an instant out. In other words, say a medusa hits you with her gaze. You are immobilized and take ongoing damage. Fail the first save and you are petrified, save ends. Fail that save twice more, and it's permanent. Save and you are immobilized and taking ongoing damage again, with the possibility of being petrified. Or, if you save the first time, you are slowed and taking less ongoing damage, save ends. Fail and you are back to immobilized. 

Anyway, that's about how I see it. To me, 4E is still a great system that corrected tons of issues I had with the last edition, and made me want to play D&D again.  
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6 months ago  ::  Nov 26, 2012 - 11:58PM #6
Matyr
Date Joined: Jun 19, 2004
Posts: 2,726

Nov 26, 2012 -- 11:19PM, Clansmansix wrote:

I think the biggest issue is the plethora of sub-par feats and powers in the game. This is a matter of simple bloat more than anything else, and some judicious trimming would solve it easily. 




I feel like trimming would only be good for those that are strictly worse than newer alternatives (like the expertise feats).


The final big issue (according to many) is the base math on the PCs' end. Specifically, there is the idea that the expertise and defense-boost feats are "feat taxes" to correct an imbalance in attack and defense progression. Adding a +1 per tier to PCs' attacks and defenses automatically would serve to correct this. Now I personally have never had a problem with PCs' accuracy or defenses during gameplay as either a DM or player, so YMMV. To me, it's not really a huge issue, and the post-Essentials expertise and superior defense feats are pure gold. 




Sadly this is a quick and easy fix that someone going through and working from the ground up would be able to fix on the player side quickly and easily.  Although some of the Superiors would remain extremely good (like Superior Will).


Personally, I think that some attacks (petrification, death gazes, certain poison attacks) should be much more dangerous than they are currently but not to the point of 3E and before's "instant win" buttons. I find the best way to handle that is to reduce the number of failed saves needed to trigger the end effect (petrification, death, etc) while making the saves to shrug the effect off a continuum rather than an instant out. In other words, say a medusa hits you with her gaze. You are immobilized and take ongoing damage. Fail the first save and you are petrified, save ends. Fail that save twice more, and it's permanent. Save and you are immobilized and taking ongoing damage again, with the possibility of being petrified. Or, if you save the first time, you are slowed and taking less ongoing damage, save ends. Fail and you are back to immobilized. 




I dont agree that it should be a kill effect personally.  I think these "worsening" save ends effects are great and should have more of a base role in the game.  Rather than just "you are dead" it should ramp up so fast after a couple saves that you are effectively dead.  I do it with stacking penalties to saves and high ongoing in my games.


Currently working on making a Dex based defender.  Check it out here
Spoiler: Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running?  Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with?  Check out the Pregen thread here
If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here
Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing".  You can check that out here
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6 months ago  ::  Nov 27, 2012 - 5:36AM #7
Herrozerro
Date Joined: Aug 13, 2007
Posts: 5,133
I'll Probably play 4e, but for the time being I have Savage worlds to play with.

What I will probably do though is slowly finish off my 4e collection, just need some powers books and the plane above.
Play whatever the **** you want.

Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot.

Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.
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6 months ago  ::  Nov 27, 2012 - 5:55AM #8
ludwig5
Date Joined: Jul 11, 2009
Posts: 12
It's probably a stupid question , but the offline CB can be updated? 
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6 months ago  ::  Nov 27, 2012 - 5:59AM #9
Matyr
Date Joined: Jun 19, 2004
Posts: 2,726

Nov 27, 2012 -- 5:55AM, ludwig5 wrote:

It's probably a stupid question , but the offline CB can be updated? 




The offline CB has some updated stuff, but WotC gave them a cease and desist order a while back and so some stuff is awkward.  The old CB was decently easy to change and edit if you know a small amount about programming but we were all supposed to stop using that when they stopped supporting it.

Currently working on making a Dex based defender.  Check it out here
Spoiler: Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running?  Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with?  Check out the Pregen thread here
If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here
Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing".  You can check that out here
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6 months ago  ::  Nov 27, 2012 - 6:46AM #10
JRedGiant1
Date Joined: Jun 14, 2009
Posts: 1,926
I plan on quitting 4E when the online tools are no longer available, and if it's done before my 4E campaigns are complete, I will quit supporting WotC in any way whatsoever.
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