s far as D&D goes, they'll have my $71.99 a year subscription so long as the online Character Builder and Adventure Tools are suppored for 4E.
Same here. If Wizards just kills the online tools, then I will kill my DDI subscription, and most likely, find less legit ways to do everything, regardless of if WotC wants it to happen or not. If they leave the 4e tools up....then I'll keep subscribing. Given what I'm seeing in the D&DN Playtest, I'm probably not going to bother switching (I'd call myself a grodnard, but I did switch from 3 to 4...), so the way for Wizards to get money out of me, at very little cost to itself, is just to keep the tools up.
I mean, its a no-brainer from where I'm sitting, but I know how foolish the corporate mindset can be.
This, pretty much word for word. I do, however, enjoy D&D Next (playtest sessions have been fun), but I see it as just another game to play and it won't replace 4e as my preferred version of D&D.
Want to know more about the history of D&D, especially how to play older editions of the game? Check out Crazy Monkey's "Tour through the editions":
The current edition is BECMI, the most popular form of Basic D&D and the adventure is the classic Red Box quest to kill Bargle the evil magic user. Check it out, learn about the games roots, and enjoy the story as it unfolds.
1) Download the Well-Supported 3rd Party Character Builders and carry on as if Nothing Happened.
Could you name some well-supported 3rd part CBs? The only one I'm aware of is fan support for the old CB. Herolab looks pretty good, but it was never updated. While it downloads data from DDI, it never updated the framework of the builder itself to handle Essentials classes and Themes.
2) Stick to Books that you Have, and if any Updates are missed, so be it.
Actually you don't need to worry about missing updates because all the errata can be downloaded for free from the website. I find it convenient to print it out and stick it inside the cover of the book it applies to.
8) Similar to what happened to 3.5E Player-base, try to find a "Replacement" 4E*. Ideally a Replacement that is very close to the original 4E, with shortcomings and all, and the full Class Selection.
9) Similar to the improvements that Pathfinder made over 3.5E, seek a Replacement that addresses the shortcomings of 4E*. This would be good even if the Class Selection is smaller and do not exactly mirror 4E.
I don't believe any such replacement exists. But that doesn't mean there couldn't be one.
However, I wouldn't want something that had the same shortcomings and all. I would want something that uses the same basic framework but improves upon what 4e had to offer. So put me down for #9.
And if a third party publisher does not release such a game, I'll do it myself (ok so I already started on it but if someone else does it better I'll use theirs instead).
10) You are too busy to consider Any of the Above, so abandon 4E and turn to other Pursuits, Games etc.
I can't imagine abandoning 4e for being too busy. Even if I was lazy and didn't feel like doing any additional work or buying any new material, I could just continue on with what I've got.
* - I'm not sure but I think that a fair bit of 3.5E became Open Source. However, we do not know whether this will happen with 4E.
3e didn't "become" open source, most of it was open from the start. It is extremely unlikely that WotC would make any of 4e open content.
Fortunately, that doesn't really matter. You don't need it to be open content in order to create 4e-compatible products. You don't need the GSL or any license at all. You don't need it to create your own game that uses the general 4e framework.
You do need it to be open content if you intend to do a mass copy-paste like so many 3e 3pp clones did, but if that's what you are doing, then what is your game really offering anyway?
At one point I do believe there was a wiki page where 4e material was being published via OGL, but that was on my old computer and I no longer have the link.
Owner and Proprietor of the House of Trolls. God of ownership and possession.
Nice to see all the great folks firmly keen on D&D 4E That's really heartwarming for a die-hard 4E fan like me who thinks that... but ok, no point mentioning them to you guys, it'll be like the new choirboy preaching to the choir.
I think the biggest issue is the plethora of sub-par feats and powers in the game. This is a matter of simple bloat more than anything else, and some judicious trimming would solve it easily.
I'm in the midst of doing this with some Classes in 4E, and with an aim to extend to more Classes. Apart from using it as a reference when the Tools are taken offline, my motivation is twofold - also to make it somewhat easier for new Players to see a full range of Powers in a single PDF, instead of having to download CBLoader or refer to multiple Books. I hope this facilitates bringing new Players into the game. However I can't do this for all the Classes...
The next biggest would be the lack of a few "iconic" builds, followed closely by the holes in some sub-classes build format. Namely, there are no viable archer-type fighters.
I've been come up with comparable defending mechanisms, but only playtesting will help to establish if it is viable. While I personally like the Seeker and I have a friend crazy about Runepriest, I've been focusing my efforts on the more "iconic" Classes first. And I don't know if it is just me looking at the DEX associated with Ranged Attacks, but somehow Slayer has always screamed "Archer Fighter!" to me.
The final big issue (according to many) is the base math on the PCs' end. Specifically, there is the idea that the expertise and defense-boost feats are "feat taxes" to correct an imbalance in attack and defense progression. Adding a +1 per tier to PCs' attacks and defenses automatically would serve to correct this. Now I personally have never had a problem with PCs' accuracy or defenses during gameplay as either a DM or player, so YMMV. To me, it's not really a huge issue, and the post-Essentials expertise and superior defense feats are pure gold.
I'll touch more on the Math shortly, think there might be a relatively simple way to fix the problem.
I don't think Skill Challenges and Rituals are big issues. Much like XP, they are codified for new DM's convenience, but I've found that keeping Players from knowing they are in a challenge (like yourself) can make things more natural, and calling for rolls that can be an immediate pass/fail in interaction can keep things more real at times. Rituals are also fairly flexible as well, you can simply alter them on the fly or b
Personally, I think that some attacks (petrification, death gazes, certain poison attacks) should be much more dangerous than they are currently but not to the point of 3E and before's "instant win" buttons. I find the best way to handle that is to reduce the number of failed saves needed to trigger the end effect (petrification, death, etc) while making the saves to shrug the effect off a continuum rather than an instant out. In other words, say a medusa hits you with her gaze. You are immobilized and take ongoing damage. Fail the first save and you are petrified, save ends. Fail that save twice more, and it's permanent. Save and you are immobilized and taking ongoing damage again, with the possibility of being petrified. Or, if you save the first time, you are slowed and taking less ongoing damage, save ends. Fail and you are back to immobilized.
I vaguely recall there are monsters that kill you (one Basilisk being an example) with 2 consecutive failed Saves. That said, a single Save and you're off-the-hook. There were mechanics for Diseases that could disable/kill Players outside of combat, which are more similar to what you say, in that a passed Save does not mean you're off the hook, it simply goes back up to the previous level of threat. There's also ways to make "Saving" take a more costly action other than "Free, at the end of every Turn." ..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />
Now that the edition is effectively done and we don't have to worry about any new content popping up to mess with game balance we've begun serious house-ruling.
Oh yes, that is a fairly delightful occurence. One of the long-standing issues with 4E is power-creep, where the old Feats and arguably Class Features have become less competitive with the release of new Classes. With the halting of the releases the community has some time to go back and "reverse" the Power-creep, as Matyr nicely put it to me.
There's different approaches, and one that I've adopted for playtesting / house-ruling is a role-based custom feat access that gives everyone the chance to excel at a certain role. These house-rules however are purely optional, which is good since there is opportunity to see how these house-ruled characters perform alongside "normal" 4E characters. That said it does ruin some degree of "uniqueness", making the game, as some friends put it, "cookie-cutter".
Well, actually I was having the old CB Loader in mind. Been considering whether to download it again. Bugged out twice on me before I became a DDI subscriber, but it might just have been my old computer acting up back then.
MATH & FEAT TAX
Most people probably have their own take on the Math, so this is just my understanding. It is put up here for critique though. +1 at Levels 4,8,11,14,18,21,24,28 effectively halves the Stat progression. That is where Expertise, Focus, and Improved Defenses come in. If we were to assume that all Stats were even numbers, and the +1 is replaced with a +2, we get... +2 at Levels 4,8,11,14,18,21,24,28 For easy comparison, assumng you start at 16, 18,20 in your Primary Stat, you would get +1 attack at at levels 8, 14, 21, 28. So its roughly equivalent to learning the Expertise feat at Lv 4, followed by getting it at Level 11 (right on time), then 18 (about 3 levels early). This cancels out Feat Taxes like Expertise, Focus, Improved Defenses.
However, there are some notable side-effects : - Levels 1-3 would probably be weaker than a Feat system where you can immediately learn XX Expertise, which lets you to frontload your +1 Expertise before the Level 4 you'd normally get the bonus. If you assume that you start with a 17,19, you'd effectively get an extra +1 at Lv 4. - You gain an extra +2 to 2 Stats. Given that most Epic Destinies give +2 to 2 Stats, this seems fine and in order - There's no use for odd scores like my favourite 17 or 19 in the Primary Stat at Level 1. Which may be a good or bad thing, depending how you see it. Effectively, this can replace the 10+2X Stats, turning it to simply Dex +4, which is equivalent to 18. I can't imagine everyone loving this though. - It is much easier to get Stats that have Minimimum Stat Requirements, eg. Superior Will - Extra Bonuses that are based on Stats benefit doubly from this. This ranges from Striker damage that is based on a Stat (Sorcerer, Slayer, Monk, Hexblade, etc) outstripping the Dice damage (PHB1 Ranger, Rogue, Warlock, etc), to the Healer's Bonus heals, to just about every aspect of Gameplay where a Stat benefits the game. However, most such bonuses originally increase with Tiers anyway, so this might just reduce the incremental number (instead of +2/4/6, it becomes +1/2/3 for example) or render it unnecessary (to go the way of say, Expertise and Focus etc) - Note that Improved Defenses automatically works for 2 of your NADs IF you are boosting (and keep boosting) 2 Stats that contribute to 2 separate NADs. This makes sense to some extent, but that's really the best case. 1 of your NADS (or 2 of them, if you are boosting say STR and CON) will almost certainly fall behind, and significantly. - Light Armor AC would increase significantly faster than what it already is. This outstrips "Masterwork" Heavy Armor (I'm no fan of Masterwork as well, it seems a contrivance to balance off the advantage of Light Armor, and then further adjusted so Light Armor also gets it, but at slower rate).
Note that AC and NADs are tricky, because in default 4E, assuming all else stays constant, Defenses tend to diminish with respect to Player Level over time (Feats & Rhythm Blade etc aside). While a Player can typically take feats to increase Defense in the early part of the game, by Paragon and Epic there are only a few such feats which are not accessible at earlier levels. It doesn't help also that the X in EL + X goes up to make it a challenge for Players, further slanting high-level game towards a "Let's have everyone hit each other all the time", which in turn grants power to those that have generally more "X Effect on a Hit" or "Lots of Damage" attacks. Or it could be that Players are expected to rely less on their gear and more on their Powers, like Powers that increase Defenses, generate lots of THP, absorb a lot of damage, etc.
OPTIONS I think there's people who like 4E the way it is, but from Trimming Bloat, there's other issues that I have in mind, mostly Optional Guidelines, like : - Making Magic Items more interesting, even Evolving - Addressing Huge Jumps in Damage, especially from Heroic to Paragon - Streamlining Paragon Paths & Epic Destinies - Vancian Magic Rules & Classes : This will be tricky, but could be interesting. - Save or Die Options : There are people who feel D&D is too "lite", or others who are facing heavily opped parties and want to inject more danger back into the game. - Separating Roles & Classes. This can be used to ensure older Classes are comparable with new Classes to counter Power Creep, and it provides a handy "Source Document" (similar to the topic mentioned under community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...) to ensure existing Classes are comparable (or incomparable, as the case might be) to other Classes within the same role. - Class Framework : for building Classes from scratch, and a comparison of Powers, separated by Tier. - Monster Power Collection : collection of notable / interesting Monster Powers to be used, separated by Tier.
This just my view though, did I miss anything? Overthinking?
When is 4e ending (aka When is D&D Next coming out)?
If the WotC product catalog and contents of the last month's Dragon are any indication, then 4E is as good as done. There are no 4E products slated to come out in 2013, and the last Dragon had almost no 4E crunch.
5E is not supposed to launch until Spring / Summer 2014, until then, rather than milking us 4E players for as much as we are worth, WotC is reprinting old edition books with new covers and trying to get money from people whose favorite editions are long past.
When is 4e ending (aka When is D&D Next coming out)?
If the WotC product catalog and contents of the last month's Dragon are any indication, then 4E is as good as done. There are no 4E products slated to come out in 2013, and the last Dragon had almost no 4E crunch.
5E is not supposed to launch until Spring / Summer 2014, until then, rather than milking us 4E players for as much as we are worth, WotC is reprinting old edition books with new covers and trying to get money from people whose favorite editions are long past.
I'll buy those old editions. Whatever I can't find for free anyways. I'll just enjoy converting it all to 4e and then downgrading anything I like from 5e to go along with 4e. Anything is possible in order to keep 4e alive and kicking. We're the only ones who actually kill off 4e by not keeping it going, not WotC. Maybe everyone get together and post a petition to WotC for more 4e before 2014?
There isn't any real preparing for me to do. I'm already not using ddi, and I have the books I want. In that sense, nothing is slated to change for me if I just keep playing 4e. The only thing I'm even mildly worried about is losing 4e players after Next is out, but I really don't think it'll be an issue, more of a "smaller pond" situation than a "barren wasteland" one.
Now that 4e is mostly done having new content created for it(WotC content, anyway), I've been considering going through it and doing some revamping, making my own sort of homebrew 4.5. But whether I actually go do that or not depends more on whether I think I can get people to use it.
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
s far as D&D goes, they'll have my $71.99 a year subscription so long as the online Character Builder and Adventure Tools are suppored for 4E.
Same here. If Wizards just kills the online tools, then I will kill my DDI subscription, and most likely, find less legit ways to do everything, regardless of if WotC wants it to happen or not. If they leave the 4e tools up....then I'll keep subscribing. Given what I'm seeing in the D&DN Playtest, I'm probably not going to bother switching (I'd call myself a grodnard, but I did switch from 3 to 4...), so the way for Wizards to get money out of me, at very little cost to itself, is just to keep the tools up.
I mean, its a no-brainer from where I'm sitting, but I know how foolish the corporate mindset can be.
This. I've not seen anything in the 5e playtest to suggest I'm going to like it. To me, it seems a step back to a lesser style. I certainly won't fault people for playing it, but I don't think I'll personally like it.
My preference right now, would be to continue to play 4e. I presently pay for DDI char builder, and won't pay for it for 5e stuff, and will move to less legit ways.
The only reason to discontinue 4e CB support is to try and force people to 5e. If they think they will make more money off people who feel they have no choice to go to 5e, then they have good reason to end 4e CB support.
That's really heartwarming for a die-hard 4E fan like me who thinks that... but ok, no point mentioning them to you guys, it'll be like the new choirboy preaching to the choir.
