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6 months ago ::
Nov 27, 2012 - 7:24AM
#21
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Cheethorne, there are already "child-safety locks" on the 5MWD. Most editions seem to have some kind of rule which effectively states that players can only benefit from a rest once every 24 hours...
You consider that the equivalent to a safety lock? To each their own I suppose and an analogy will only take us so far, but suffice it to say that if that were enough of a deterrent, then I would not continue to a problem here. As for your solutions (DM stop them or let them suffer), I don't consider either of those good enough solutions, which of course should be obvious since I prefer a mechanical solution.
How about this for a question, do you feel that restating your opinion over and over again is going to change my mind? Do you feel that you are saying something that has not been said before?
I do find it kind of funny that when Dwarfslayer started this most recent round of 5MWD discussions, the post was quite long and went into detail about the counter points to the 5MWD that he felt were out there and discussed why he did not think those counter points were good enough (or valid or whatever as the case may be). I don't think I've seen any general counter point on the 5MWD that was not covered by his post. Certainly, specific criticisms on proposed mechanical solutions offer new information and has helped me clarify what kind of mechanical solutions I would like to see (or optional rules or whatever), but that's not what you did here.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 27, 2012 - 7:45AM
#22
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Date Joined:
May 25, 2012
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All I was trying to say was that I don't understand how people are exhausting themselves to avoid doing something that they don't want to do in the first place...
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6 months ago ::
Nov 27, 2012 - 7:55AM
#23
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All I was trying to say was that I don't understand how people are exhausting themselves to avoid doing something that they don't want to do in the first place...
LOL This just gave me a flash of Evil Dead 2 when Ash is attacked by his own hand. :-)
My Mom always said, "if it hurts when you do that, then don't do that."
Kalex the Omen Dungeonmaster Extraordinaire Concerning Player Rules Bias
Show
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 27, 2012 - 8:13AM
#24
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Date Joined:
May 25, 2012
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... hence, my confusion.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 27, 2012 - 8:25AM
#25
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Everything happens in the world because the DM makes it happen and everything the players hear about is because it is something that the DM told the players about (sometimes after they asked for more information). I think the players well understand that the DM is controlling events in the world and I don't think acknowledging that is going to strain anybody's sense of disbelief.
Incorrect assumption. "Everything" does not happen in my world because I make it happen. After I place events and such in my world, they resolve through die roll and player intervention. If I set up a conspiracy, I do not get to decide how (or even when) it will end. It is randomized. Might it resolve itself just fine? Yes. Might it end poorly for the world? Yes. I do not know which way it will go however.
Since my players know that I do not, in fact, decide when/how everything happens in the world, they know things are unfolding around them at the worlds pace...not that of anyone at the table.
I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end.
If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it. #SuperDungeonMasterIITurbo
My blog and stuff http://dmingtowin.blogspot.com/
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6 months ago ::
Nov 27, 2012 - 8:44AM
#26
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Date Joined:
Oct 19, 2012
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Everything happens in the world because the DM makes it happen and everything the players hear about is because it is something that the DM told the players about (sometimes after they asked for more information). I think the players well understand that the DM is controlling events in the world and I don't think acknowledging that is going to strain anybody's sense of disbelief.
When the whole world is basically allowed to exist in a vacuum that the players create by their presence, it can. I really don't control everything. Similar to Yagami, what I do is create places, people, and events, and try to have them unfold as naturally and organically as I possibly can.
That is a different kind of thing than what I am talking about. That is an example of allowing player's actions to change the story in their presence or through their actions and that is definitely something to be encouraged. However, that does not also prevent the DM have having separate plot points that you work into the story to progress the campaign (assuming previous player action did not invalidate those story points). For example, if the campaign starts off with an Orc raid on the town the characters are in, then that's a story point the DM is introducing. If you want to use a Drow ambassador at the Orc headquarters to hint that the raids may have a deeper meaning, then the Drow ambassador is going to be present whenever the characters happen to get to the headquarters, or evidence of her, so in the end the players have the same information regardless.
Not in my world they won't. I may have a personal desire to see something like that happen, and I may create the possibility as a result, but that drow isn't just going to sit there waiting for them to show.
This brings up and interesting point that John "Totalbiscuit" Baine said specifically about new generation shooters vs. older games. New generation shooters, compared to their roots, feel like they are more like guided tours, and that older shooters like Duke 3D had completely different set-ups, because the developers weren't so selfish that they had to make sure everyone saw every little thing that they had created. Sometimes people miss the stuff that you've created, and they might never know.
That said there are things you can do in that situation. Maybe a note was left with a strange cipher on it that the orcs were supposed to get to someone. This way they still get something, but now this drow is a couple steps ahead of them, and tha t may cost them down the road, if they don't find a way to catch up. Time flows in my world much like it does in the real world. Think about Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli, and all the work they put into running down that pack of Uruks in The Two Towers. The movie doesn't really demonstrate how many weeks they were at that.
Or who knows. The players might arrive early, kill all the orcs, and somehow realize an important agent i sabout to show up. When he gets there, he'll be shocked to find all his compatriots butchered, or gone, depending on what the PCs did to clean up the scene. More later, but I has got to go.
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" class="mceContentBody " contenteditable="true" />
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6 months ago ::
Nov 27, 2012 - 9:08AM
#27
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Incorrect assumption. "Everything" does not happen in my world because I make it happen. After I place events and such in my world, they resolve through die roll and player intervention. If I set up a conspiracy, I do not get to decide how (or even when) it will end. It is randomized. Might it resolve itself just fine? Yes. Might it end poorly for the world? Yes. I do not know which way it will go however.
Since my players know that I do not, in fact, decide when/how everything happens in the world, they know things are unfolding around them at the worlds pace...not that of anyone at the table.
Totally agree with this. I would have ended you last sentence, "not that of any one person at the table."
Kalex the Omen Dungeonmaster ExtraordinaireConcerning Player Rules Bias
Show
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 27, 2012 - 9:47AM
#28
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Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2001
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Doesn't all this kind of revolve around a Descent-type of game though? What if it's a campaign with no combat? The 5mwd doesn't really hold then does it?
jh
Gamer Chiropractor - Hafner Chiropractic 305 S. Kipling st,Suite C-2, Lakewood, Co 80226 www.hafnerchiropractic.com
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6 months ago ::
Nov 27, 2012 - 9:57AM
#29
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... hence, my confusion.
Google "David Sirlin Scrub Mentality" and give it a read. It will pretty much answer your questions.
When people with a certain mind-set run into issues with a game they are playing, they too often rush to blame the game and demand changes instead of getting self-reflective and seeing if it's something they're doing. This is exacerbated by the "no wrong way to play!" mindless mantra that has gripped D&D combined with the "The point is fun!" fallacy. These things combine to the point where NOTHING can actually be discussed because nothing is anyones fault, everything is valid (so long as it's subjectively fun) and no one can be making any mistakes...ego, the only option left is that the game sucks in all ways and must be overhauled until people EVERYWHERE no longer run into ANY problems with it.
Do not bother trying to understand the mentality. There is nothing logical about it. It is purely emotional and illogical.
And so...
...hence, your confusion.
I'm on a journey of enlightenment, learning and self-improvement. A journey towards mastery. A journey that will never end.
If you challenge me, prepare to be challenged. If you have something to offer as a fellow student, I will accept it. If you call yourself a master, prepare to be humbled. If you seek me, look to the path. I will be traveling it. #SuperDungeonMasterIITurbo
My blog and stuff http://dmingtowin.blogspot.com/
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6 months ago ::
Nov 27, 2012 - 10:41AM
#30
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Date Joined:
Oct 31, 2009
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Well yagami, it seems wherever the discussion is placed, there will be detritus. Some of your counter rebubutals were sound, a few cogent. Others I disagree with. I have another 10 hour shift coming up in 6 hours and I need to sleep yet, so I don't have time to respond properly. At the very least your counter argument and clarifications pointed out areas where I need to correct my arguments and make them clearer. I think in the end, we will come to an agreement. It seems without personal attacks, and having to ward and protect against flaming, logical discussion, and rational thought process can at least make our differing points of view more intelligable to others. Thanks for helping me refine my argument, and discussing this in a reasonable manner.
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