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6 months ago ::
Nov 27, 2012 - 8:43AM
#21
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Date Joined:
Jun 25, 2011
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While I appreciate the OP's arguments for a separate class, I'm not conviced.
The Rogue is all we need to make an effective Assassin. The Assassin lives in a Rogue Scheme and possibly Augmented by a Background and Specialty.
The Assassin is to the Rogue as the Illusionist is to the Wizard.
And if you want the Assassin to be more magic-inclined, then multiclass with Wizard (or perhaps Warlock/Socerer).
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6 months ago ::
Nov 27, 2012 - 9:21AM
#22
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While I do think that the devs should knock out as many classes as they can whilst we are playtesting, I feel some classes would need some good advocates in order to justify their existence as a seperate class. The assassin does feel like it can be covered as either a specialty or a rogue theme. Claims of magic use or instant death abilities to seperate it as a class from rogue make me leery. But if the devs decide to do an assassin and it's good, by all means lets have an assassin.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 27, 2012 - 10:24AM
#23
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Date Joined:
Oct 21, 2012
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My concern is becoming that they will have to start creating mechanics for the sake of creating unique feeling classes. Having a different thought process is good to a certain extent but this could spin out of control and all of us are on this same plane!!! If it comes down to just gut instinct I would rather see just the 4 classes made mechanically distinct, and have everything under the sun plugged into one of those 4 templates. I guess its a good thing that I'm not a game designer who is accountable for his statements =-)
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6 months ago ::
Nov 27, 2012 - 10:29AM
#24
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Assassin is about as entitled to its own class distinct from rogue as ranger and paladin are entitled to their own class distinct from fighter. Rangers and paladins will have a little magic, a couple of unique abilities, and a place in the world that could easily be filled by a fighter with the right specialty or multiclass combination. Assassins can have a little magic, a couple of unique abilities, and a place in the world that could easily be filled by a rogue with the right specialty or multiclass combination. All three classes have a unique flavor and D&D tradition, have identities that have expanded beyond D&D, and inspire character concepts. If ranger and paladin get a class (and they should), the assassin should also. The defense rests its case.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 27, 2012 - 10:36AM
#25
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2008
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Sword of Spirit, this was a great case, and you have swayed me over to the side of the Assassin. In the past, I have felt that the Assassin's concept could be realized through background and specialty. But you make a strong and convincing argument that made me think about other classes.
Anyone can learn to fight, but not everyone is a Fighter. Anyone can join a church, but not everyone is a Cleric. Anyone can join a thieves' guild, but not everyone is a Rogue. Anyone can study arcane lore, but not everyone is a Wizard. Anyone can join a monestary, but not everyone is a Monk.
In the same way, anyone can be an assassin, but not everyone is an Assassin. The capital A means you trained specifically with one of the specialized guilds and learned the true art of being an Assassin, mixing martial skill with shadow magic (I like that better then just giving them wizard spells).
So while a Rogue could make a fine assassin with the right skills and training, they still wouldn't be the same as an Assassin. To paraphrase Samuel L. Jackson's character from Jackie Brown:
"The Assassin. The very best there is. When you absolutely, positively got to kill every [CENSORED] in the room, accept no substitutes."
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6 months ago ::
Nov 27, 2012 - 10:42AM
#26
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I wouldn't mind if the assassin was more of a "ritualist". In that it didn't have any magic spells to cats in combat, but it had "dark secrets" that it could apply with a few minutes' time and materials. Essentially, assassins operating in a world of magic would learn a few tricks to even the playing field, even if they weren't casters. Poison lore would fit in nicely here. So some dark secrets could include...
Soul-Reaving. Using a prized possession, hair, or blood from his target, the assassin enchants a weapon so that if it inflicts the killing blow *whether by the assassin or another), the target cannot be raised or resurrected, and the body cannot be the subject of divination (including speak with dead). The assassin can have only one application at a time. Unless magically obscured, the weapon will radiate as magical (abjuration) and an identify spell will determine the nature of the enchantment. The effect lasts 24 hours.
Death attack: Using a prized possession, hair, or blood from his target, the assassin imbues himself with the power to kill a creature with fewer maximum hit points than the assassin's maximum hit points. The effect last 24 hours. If the assassin hits his target before the target has acted in combat, the target takes damage as normal and must make a Constitution Saving throw against a DC equal to the damage inflicted (a natural 20 always succeeds). Failur emeans death.
Undetectable: Assassins can learn how to render themselves and the objects they carry as immune to divination. This dark secret requires ten minutes to invoke and lasts one hour/level. At 2nd level or more, the assassin can transfer an hour of duration to other creatures. (I.e., a 4th level assassin can make himself undetectable for four hours, or four creatures undetectable for one hour). At fifth level, the assassin can actually customize the aura they radiate so that, rather than be undetectable, they can detect falsely. (I.e., the assassin can detect as lawful good, or that his carried armor and weapons are magical even if they are not.)
Poison Farm: Assassins learn alchemical secrets that allow them to replicate a base poison of the assassin's level or lower. The resulting copy is weaker and less stable. It can be maintained only for 24 hours and is rendered inert if handled by anybody but the assassin who created it. The assassin can create a number of poison doses equal to twice his level. This allows the assassin to use poison without it being a complete drain on his purse.
Poison Use: An assassin is skilled at applying poison to a weapon or in food, drink, even candles. An assassin can use a posion of his level or lower without fear of poisoning himself. A poisoned weapon loses its poisoned quality after the first successful hit by that weapon. There should be a variety of cheap poisons that simply inflict damage, giving the assassin the ability to inflict additional damage akin to a fighter's expertise die.
Smoke Bomb: An assassin can concoct smoke bombs which when released with an action, grant instant concealment and allow an assassin to take one move action completely unseen.
With the use of "Dark Secrets" the assassin can occupy an iconic role in the class without appearing too "shadow mage" and while still distinguishing himself. Create about 20 or more dark secrets and let the assassin start with three (poison use and poison farm would almost definitely be two of them) and learn an additional dark secrets every level.
Why not include shadow magic options in those, so people who want their assassin in a fantasy setting to use shadow magic can, and those who don't don't have to?
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
I could say anything in D&D is silly though, because it's a silly game and we are silly people.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 27, 2012 - 10:43AM
#27
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the word Assasin is acociated with a person who will kill any target if he gets payed enough for it and has a Evil/Negative load to it.
the same reasens why goverments and law inforcement don't realy use the word assasin. even if they talk about a person sent to infiltrate a drug cartell and take out one of the big drug barons. instead they use descriptions like "A agent higly trained in covert operations"
not talking about that he assasinated the target instead saying he nutralised the treat.
I hope you don't mind if I'm blunt, but if you think stuff like that weighs more in the minds of people likely to play this game than things like assassin's creed, books like the Night Angel Trilogy, etc, then you are simply wrong. And almost no historical group of assassins with any popularity in the minds of the general populace were the "kill anyone for the right price" type. Look at both Ninja and the Hashashin.
Further, and more importantly, call him what you want, but that person you describe is an assassin. The fighter that takes coin to kill a merchant is almost certainly just a mercenary and/or a thug. The person that takes that same coin, and then infiltrates the merchant's home, poisons his brandy, and leaves no trace of his actions is also an assassin, of course.
Conclusion? Assassins run the full gamut of alignments. The non-good only restriction has always been completely preposterous.
To me, the assassin's justification for being a class hinges on the rogue's weapons and Sneak Attack. If the rogue is made so soft and reliant on trickery, then you need a deadlier faster and tougher assassin class to fill the gap. The October rogue is too weak to serve as an assassin but the August rogue had more ability to assassinate.
Nah. You can still have an Assassin class while still having a fully-functional Rogue. You just need to focus on making it distinct, by focusing on poison, instant-death attacks, and limited spellcasting.
So a Rogue then.
How is that a rogue?
Are you trying to make the rogue as unfocused and lacking in a real identity as the fighter?
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
I could say anything in D&D is silly though, because it's a silly game and we are silly people.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 27, 2012 - 10:45AM
#28
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Date Joined:
Jun 27, 2004
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I honestly despise the idea that certain things are "entitled to be a full class" because of that status in the past. If it can't stand as a class on its own two legs now, within the current framework, why force it?
That said, I honestly do not care anymore whether there is an assassin "core class", so long as the Assassin doesn't "carve its niche" out of the Rogue's abilities. This is something that came up a lot in the PT3 Sneak Attack maneuver discussions - "It's okay that the Rogue doesn't spike damage, because it makes room for the Assassin." Don't strip down the Rogue to make space for another class.
Especially if the Assassin class emphasized supernatural or shadow whatever (which I would agree is a good direction to go, if they want to make a distinct class out of it).
Feedback Disclaimer
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Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us.
No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC).
(And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.) A Psion for Next (Playable Draft)A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)My 4e Projects
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6 months ago ::
Nov 27, 2012 - 10:46AM
#29
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Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2004
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I would prefer that an assassin not have magic as was the case in 1e. An assassin should have either an instant kill attack, a SoD ability, or an increased chance of making a critical hit.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 27, 2012 - 10:56AM
#30
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Date Joined:
Sep 15, 2008
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What if what makes an Assassin unique is their ability to kill outside of combat?
Assassin's are all about getting the drop on people, not fighting. So why give them combat abilities? Sure they can fight, but so can a Wizard. That's not what makes them deadly. What makes them deadly is that they can kill you without you even knowing that they're there. What makes them deadly is that by the time you see them, you're already dead. That's an Assassin.
Anyway, that's the Assassin I want to play, and that's the Assassin you can't play no matter how much you try with a Rogue.
"Make things as simple as possible, but no simpler." - Albert Einstein
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