Nov 29, 2012 -- 3:23PM, Alsebra wrote:

Nov 29, 2012 -- 3:03PM, Oma012 wrote:

sorry but a wand unlike a staff/scroll are only a trigger item.

Sorry, but a wand is a spell trigger item (just like a staff);  a scroll is a spell completion item (DMG, pg 213;  your beloved RC, pg 84;  et al.).

yes but the scroll need a minimum ability score and the staff need a ability score to use
then the wand need be triggered but the scroll need also the minimum ability score and the staff need also the ability score to use then the wand unlike the staff or the scroll only need be triggered to be used.

Nov 29, 2012 -- 3:37PM, StevenO wrote:

Nov 29, 2012 -- 3:03PM, Oma012 wrote:

sorry but a wand unlike a staff/scroll are only a trigger item

You REALLY need to read up on the rules for Staffs.  While you can follow the link here is are the basics:
 

Staffs

A staff is a long shaft of wood that stores several spells. Unlike wands, which can contain a wide variety of spells, each staff is of a certain kind and holds specific spells. A staff has 50 charges when created.

Activation

Staffs use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a staff is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast, however, has a longer casting time than 1 standard action, it takes that long to cast the spell from a staff.) To activate a staff, a character must hold it forth in at least one hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for nonhumanoid creatures).

There you are, clear as day.  A staff is a spell trigger item and when you try saying otherwise you just paint yourself in a poorer and poorer light.  It says nothing about NEEDING a certain ability score to be able to use a staff.

 

yes and what is a trigger item.

Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

but in this part never speak about ability score.

-Now what say the staff decription????

Staff Descriptions

Staffs use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff.

This means that staffs are far more potent in the hands of a powerful spellcaster. Because they use the wielder’s ability score to set the save DC for the spell, spells from a staff are often harder to resist than ones from other magic items, which use the minimum ability score required to cast the spell. Not only are aspects of the spell dependant on caster level (range, duration, and so on) potentially higher, but spells from a staff are harder to dispel and have a better chance of overcoming a target’s spell resistance.

Furthermore, a staff can hold a spell of any level, unlike a wand, which is limited to spells of 4th level or lower. The minimum caster level of a staff is 8th. Standard staffs are described below.

-Now what happen if you give an minimum ability score, then you go to the general rule and this rule say that if you don't have the minimum you can't cast.

again if a bard use heal from a staff and can use her own CL then he use her own ability key as described in the staff description because is like if the spell was in her class spell list.

Nov 29, 2012 -- 8:34PM, StevenO wrote:

No, i am saying that a staff not is only a trigger item, the staff need also an ability score while the wand only need a trigger.

Now the UMD only ONLY let you use the trigger item as if you had the spell in your class list, is the only that you can do for a trigger item if you have UMD, but the staff have a special entry "use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells"
and in this the UMD can't help because this a entry are of the staff not of the trigger item.

The rule dont say nothing about what kind of stat you use, this item are made for spellcaster and as described use the wilder ability score, but what happen if the wilder dont have un key ability??? the rule dont say nothing but the more similar is the rules of the scrolls (Arcane with Int or Cha, Divine with Wis) but still because dont is a general rule is a DM discretion.

Now if a wizard take a staff of power with a Int of 8, because of the staff rule dont say nothing you need to go to the general rule then he cant cast any spell because her low Int.

And about of the trigger item yes you dont need any ability score or CL because the item put all but in this case the staff need the magical power of the wielder as described as specified rule of the staff then this break the general rule to use this item like a cleric with rebuke undead can cowered an undead immune to fear.