So i have a question again. Google and search function gave me different answers, and i didnt found anything in the FAQ or Books to it.

When i Use a Staff with Use Magic Device, i first have to make a UMD check against a DC 20, like for a wand. But can I use UMD to emulate a higher INT or Casterlvl in conjunction with a Staff. 

For example, i first roll for Using the Staff DC 20. Then i make a role to emulate a Class Feature (lvl in class then = roll - 20 according to SRD) and for that i role a 35, so my effective lvl would be 15. Then I emulate an ability Score, have a Lucky role and get a 40. My Emulated Ability score would now be roll - 15 = 25.

So would i cast a Spell from a Staff then with a casterlevel of 15 and an Int score of 25?

Greetings

Seeron

sorry as standard you can't use UMD to active staffs, only scrolls and wands

Sorry, as standard, read the books Oma.

If you read the rule books properly, you will see that Staffs, like wands are spell triggered items, with the difference being that staffs contain higher level spells and a wider variety of spells, as well as being able to use the wielder's CL and relevant feats to determine the spell's DC etc.


The entry in the PHB states under the Use Magic Device skill

Use a Wand

Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand’s spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill also applies to other spell trigger magic items, such as staffs



Meaning specifically You can use to to activate staffs. A specific DC isn't give, but like wands it would be a minimum DC of 20.

I would be inclined to make Staffs DC 20 + Caster Level, but there is no real specific given, so technically it is just a DC 20 like a wand as far as the rules are concerned. Casters only use their own CL etc if it is higher then the staff's minimum. You could attempt to use the scroll at a higher Caster Level and emulate a higher INT and any number of feats to inhance the spell, You would just make the appropriate rolls, so, yes it would work pretty much the way you described. 

thx for the fast answer.

Keep in mind that as staves use the Ability modifier and relevant feats of the user, that the standard DC 20 roll for using it will be rather on the weaker side, so to use effectively you will basically have to do the emulation rolls or else have very low DC spells (not always a big deal)

another question, when i cast for example fireball, which appears on the sorcerer and the wizard spell list? can i choose to use cha or int? or is the relevant stat of the creator used (so charisma, if a sorcerer created it)? and casterlvl would prob be the minimum casterlevel of the staff (so CL9 for Grade 5 spells), am I right?

Seeron, Yes you can choose to use either Int or Charisma in that case, the stat used by the creator isn't important.


The Caster level would probably be the minimum used for the staff, for the DC 20 to use (just like a wand) However you could attempt to emulate a higher caster level if you wished.

O is right but the rules of Staff need that you use your own ability score that you use to set the DC of yours own Spells then he need a key ability score for spells and a standard rouge don't have it and spells not are a class feature then a standard rouge can't emulate it, he need become a prestige class with access to spell to can use a staff.

 Oma, please read the rules for Use Magic Device, Rogues can use it to cast spells from wands, scrolls and staves despite not having access to the spells, that is the whole purpose of Use Magic Device. They don't need to have spells as a class feature to use spell triggered items.

Rogues and Bards with high Int or Wisdom scores are common place, even so if they need a particular ability score then they can emulate it, as per the rules outlined in the Use Magical Device entry.

Nov 27, 2012 -- 9:51AM, MrCustomer wrote:

 Oma, please read the rules for Use Magic Device, Rogues can use it to cast spells from wands, scrolls and staves despite not having access to the spells, that is the whole purpose of Use Magic Device. They don't need to have spells as a class feature to use spell triggered items.

Rogues and Bards with high Int or Wisdom scores are common place, even so if they need a particular ability score then they can emulate it, as per the rules outlined in the Use Magical Device entry.

a bard can do it, bot a rouge can't because dont have key ability score as you say he can use wands and scroll but staff have different rules as saying in her description

Staffs use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff.

"This means that staffs are far more potent in the hands of a powerful spellcaster. Because they use the wielder’s ability score to set the save DC for the spell, spells from a staff are often harder to resist than ones from other magic items, which use the minimum ability score required to cast the spell. Not only are aspects of the spell dependant on caster level (range, duration, and so on) potentially higher, but spells from a staff are harder to dispel and have a better chance of overcoming a target’s spell resistance."

Then he can active the item with a score of / then the spell can't be casted because you need the minimum ability score to cast the spell at last.

Oma, under Use Magic Device it states:

Emulate an Ability Score

To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you’re emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don’t need to make this check

So all a Rogue needs to do is emulate the ability score as desired.

Also as a staff is a spell trigger item there is no rule saying the user must meet the minimum ability score to cast the spell, just that it uses the wielder's ability score to determine the effects, just as a Wizard with Int 11 can use a Wand of Fireballs. The creator of the sttaff handles the minimum CL and Ability requirements.  It only uses the Ability Modifier to determine the spell's save DC. But even if the DM insisted upon the Ability being high enough the above rule to Emulate an Ability Score would be used.

Nov 27, 2012 -- 10:24AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Oma, under Use Magic Device it states:

Emulate an Ability Score

To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you’re emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don’t need to make this check

So all a Rogue needs to do is emulate the ability score as desired.

Also as a staff is a spell trigger item there is no rule saying the user must meet the minimum ability score to cast the spell, just that it uses the wielder's ability score to determine the effects, just as a Wizard with Int 11 can use a Wand of Fireballs. The creator of the sttaff handles the minimum CL and Ability requirements.  It only uses the Ability Modifier to determine the spell's save DC. But even if the DM insisted upon the Ability being high enough the above rule to Emulate an Ability Score would be used.

sorry the rule are for scrolls only not staff read it.

it nowhere stated, that you need the key ability minimum to cast the spell from a staff. It's only stated, that ur key ability is used for the DC. That you need a minimum INT or CHA is stated in the Spellcasting feature of the caster class, so you dont have to apply this rule to staffs. As stated in the SRD "Because they use the wielder’s ability score to set the save DC for the spell, spells from a staff are often harder to resist". The important part here is the often, so it means, there are cases, where its not harder to resist, so with a lower DC then the same spell from a scroll or a Wand

Nov 27, 2012 -- 2:22PM, Seeron wrote:

it nowhere stated, that you need the key ability minimum to cast the spell from a staff. It's only stated, that ur key ability is used for the DC. That you need a minimum INT or CHA is stated in the Spellcasting feature of the caster class, so you dont have to apply this rule to staffs. As stated in the SRD "Because they use the wielder’s ability score to set the save DC for the spell, spells from a staff are often harder to resist". The important part here is the often, so it means, there are cases, where its not harder to resist, so with a lower DC then the same spell from a scroll or a Wand

but the use magic divice don't let you emulate an ability score in staff and the rule is that you need use your own key ability in spells and a character that dont cast spells dont have key ability in spells.

Emulate Ability Score
To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the
appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom
for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells).
Your effective ability score, appropriate to the class you’re
emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll, is
your Use Magic Device check result –15. If you already have
a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don’t need
to make this check.

At last if your DM let use an ability score you need use CHA as the natural ability score for spells
or the ability score of the class that make the item

Oma again you are wrong. Because nowhere under the rules does it bar Charisma Based casters from using Scrolls, Wands, Staves etc made by Inteligent casters, or vice versa. Point of fact, a Sorceror can cast a spell from a scroll written by a Wizard, and a Wizard can cast a spell from a scroll written by a Sorceror.

So the Rogue is free to emulate the Ability score of his choice to use the item, not that it matters. Also the Key ability for spells is Int/Wis/Cha, all characters have Inteligence. It's rediculous to say they lack the key ability of Int/Wis/Cha because of their class. And the UMD states that if a rogue already has a high enough score in that ability they don't need to emulate it.

And Nowhere is it stated that you need the key ability score to cast a spell from a Staff. Just like nowhere is it stated that you need the right ability score to cast a spell from a Wand. (and the staff uses the same rule to cast as the wand)

This isn't like a Scroll, which is a Spell Completion item (requiring that you are able to cast it and have the ability score/level to do so) A Staff is a Spell Trigger item and it states impicitely under Spell Triggered Items that  "Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells"

 There is no restrictions to the Rogue's Inteligence score to Cast a level 4 spell from a Wand, despite the need for an ability score of 14 to cast a level 4 spell, a Rogue with Inteligence of 8 can use a Wand with UMD DC of 20. A level 1 Wizard with 11 Inteligence can use Wand of Fireballs despite fireball needing an ability score of 13, Caster level of 5 to cast normally.

The Rogue therefore could use a Staff with a DC of 20 for the minimum caster level, albeit with a low Save DC.

The Rogue using a Staff of Fire, CL 8, with an Inteligence and Charisma of 8, Would make a DC 20 roll to cast a Fireball 8d6 damage, Reflex save (10+level 3 spell -1 Ability)

If the Rogue UMD +17 wanted, he could Emulate a Higher Class Level and Ability Score. He would make the Following Rolls:

Use the Staff: DC 20

Emulate A high Int, Rolls D20+17, gets 31 less 15 is 16 Inteligence (+3)

Emulate CL 10, makes a DC 30 roll.

If he makes those rolls he can Cast a Fireball 10d6 Damage, Reflex of 16 (10+level 3 spell + 3 ability) to save   

Nov 28, 2012 -- 8:14AM, MrCustomer wrote:

again read UMD and tell me in what part say that you can emulate an ability score for a staff, in the Rule comependium say the same, the emulate ability score only work in scrolls.
quote it please

I've got a better idea, Oma. You quote where it says you can't. Can a rogue use UMD to cast from a staff? Yes. Can a rogue use UMD to emulate a certain caster level? Yes. Can a rogue use UMD to emulate a needed ability score? Yes. YOU QUOTE where it says that they can't all be used together, m'kay, pumpkin?

Nov 28, 2012 -- 9:14AM, draco1119 wrote:

I've got a better idea, Oma. You quote where it says you can't. Can a rogue use UMD to cast from a staff? Yes. Can a rogue use UMD to emulate a certain caster level? Yes. Can a rogue use UMD to emulate a needed ability score? Yes. YOU QUOTE where it says that they can't all be used together, m'kay, pumpkin?

then you are saying that you can kill any player with rolling a d4 because in any part say you can't???

the rule is clear that UMD to Emulate an Ability Score is only for scrolls if work like you say then a rouge can use it to Emulate a Great STR score to use a Magical melee weapon and deal more damage

Oma, Use a Scroll is under a seperate sub-heading from Emulate an Ability Score (which can be used for any number of things) The Sub-heading for Emulate an Ability Score just uses a scroll as an example and really what you are most likely to use it for.

This is the same as how the sub-heading for Use a Scroll and Use a Wand are actually only using a scroll or wand as an example, and specifically states for example under them

This use of the skill also applies to other spell completion magic items.
This use of the skill also applies to other spell trigger magic items, such as staffs

The same rules can be applied to other items, not just scrolls and wands, but any applicable Magic Item. Scrolls and Wands are simply used as the most commonly available items at any level. In fact a scroll is the most likely magic item for a level 1 character to possess.


So there you go, Emulating an Ability Score is nor limited to only scrolls.  

Nov 28, 2012 -- 9:28AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Oma, Use a Scroll is under a seperate sub-heading from Emulate an Ability Score (which can be used for any number of things) The Sub-heading for Emulate an Ability Score just uses a scroll as an example and really what you are most likely to use it for.

This is the same as how the sub-heading for Use a Scroll and Use a Wand are actually only using a scroll or wand as an example, and specifically states for example under them

This use of the skill also applies to other spell completion magic items.
This use of the skill also applies to other spell trigger magic items, such as staffs

The same rules can be applied to other items, not just scrolls and wands, but any applicable Magic Item. Scrolls and Wands are simply used as the most commonly available items at any level. In fact a scroll is the most likely magic item for a level 1 character to possess.


So there you go, Emulating an Ability Score is nor limited to only scrolls.  

yes you can TRIGGER the Staff with UMD but you can't emulate an ability score
as example a bard can use UMD to use a staff using her CHA and the CL too if he like

Emulate ability score dont have any special note like this in the CR or the DMG

Oma, it is right under Use Magic Device, fully explained, You can Emulate an Ability Score for the purposes of using any Magic Device to which an Ability Score would effect. It's written right there in the book, in clear, plain text. Emulating an Ability Score does not only apply to Scrolls it also "applies to other" magic items, as written under the sub-heading Using a Scroll.

Oma, Do you have such a fear of being wrong that you will deliberately Lie about the rules? I am begining to suspect that.

Nov 28, 2012 -- 9:46AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Oma, it is right under Use Magic Device, fully explained, You can Emulate an Ability Score for the purposes of using any Magic Device to which an Ability Score would effect. It's written right there in the book, in clear, plain text. Emulating an Ability Score does not only apply to Scrolls it also "applies to other" magic items, as written under the sub-heading Using a Scroll.

Oma, Do you have such a fear of being wrong that you will deliberately Lie about the rules? I am begining to suspect that.

if this work like you say then he can't cast from a staff because her abilitie score dont change and if he have 8 int and try to cast fireball from a staff the DC will be 12 and under the rules is unable to happen(the UMD dont support the emulation of the Staff only scrolls).

this is the main point of why the UMD dont support the emulation of an ability score in a staff

and again UMD support the trigger remember that many class like the bard have UMD and have spells.

Oma, the entry specifically states under the subheading for scrolls that this also applies to other magic items. The rules state outright that Yes you can do this.

Do you even read the bull that you write? 

The Base DC for using a Staff is the same as a Wand,  "This use of the skill also applies to other spell trigger magic items, such as staffs." There is no requirement for being a Caster, or having access to spells for this use of UMD, in fact that is the whole purpose of UMD. "Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class.."

You are attempting to slap a restriction on it that not only doesn't exist, but that the rules outright state otherwise.

Oma, you are lying, outright lying, if you state that the rules don't say this.

Nov 28, 2012 -- 10:49AM, MrCustomer wrote:

From Rule Compendium UMD section
The use of UMD in scrolls and wands is for emulate that you have the spell of the Scroll or the wand in your Spell list

then you can use UMD to emulate that you have the spell of the staff in your spell list but not the ability score.


Emulate Ability Score
To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells).
Your effective ability score, appropriate to the class you’re emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll, is your Use Magic Device check result –15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don’t need to make this check.

Use Scroll
If you’re casting a spell from a scroll, you have to decipher it first. Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you’re trying to cast from the scroll.
In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability score. If you don’t have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a SEPARATE Use Magic Device check. Using a scroll still has a mishap chance as normal. This use of the skill also applies to other spell completion magic items.

Use Wand
Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand’s spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. Using the skill in this way also applies to other spell trigger magic items, such as staffs.

Oma, under your interpretation of the rules, a rogue with UMD can't use a staff. Under the rules AS EXPLICITLY WRITTEN, a rogue with UMD can use a staff. Ergo, your interpretation is wrong. It's really that simple.

Nov 28, 2012 -- 11:19AM, draco1119 wrote:

Oma, under your interpretation of the rules, a rogue with UMD can't use a staff. Under the rules AS EXPLICITLY WRITTEN, a rogue with UMD can use a staff. Ergo, your interpretation is wrong. It's really that simple.

where say that a rouge can cast from a Staff, the full description in the last updated rules say that is a separate UMD check and this check in her section is only for scrolls.

Oma:

Under Use a Scroll is states that this use of the skill also applies to other to other magic items

Under Use a Wand you highlight  "wand’s spell on your class spell list" And by doing so you are deliberately and purposefully being a LIAR!

Because what the sentance says is

"Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand’s spell on your class spell list"

and then goes on to say

"This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list."

Selectively misquoting text is lying!

Nov 28, 2012 -- 11:25AM, Oma012 wrote:

Nov 28, 2012 -- 11:19AM, draco1119 wrote:

Oma, under your interpretation of the rules, a rogue with UMD can't use a staff. Under the rules AS EXPLICITLY WRITTEN, a rogue with UMD can use a staff. Ergo, your interpretation is wrong. It's really that simple.

where say that a rouge can cast from a Staff, the full description in the last updated rules say that is a separate UMD check and this check in her section is only for scrolls.

 Its stated in the srd under the description of UMD in the section use wand.. This use of the skill also applies to other spell trigger magic items, such as staffs.

Nov 28, 2012 -- 11:32AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Oma:

Under Use a Scroll is states that this use of the skill also applies to other to other magic items

Under Use a Wand you highlight  "wand’s spell on your class spell list" And by doing so you are deliberately and purposefully being a LIAR!

Because what the sentance says is

"Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand’s spell on your class spell list"

and then goes on to say

"This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list."

Selectively misquoting text is lying!

sorry but under the "Use a Scroll" the check say that "THIS " use of UMD can be apply to other trigger items then, and the only one use in the "USE A SCROLL" is to cover the fact that you need the spell in your class spell list like the wand that is the same as saying "the use of this UMD check let you active the wand/scroll as if you had a spell list whit this particular spell on it"

Nov 28, 2012 -- 11:39AM, Seeron wrote:

Nov 28, 2012 -- 11:25AM, Oma012 wrote:

Nov 28, 2012 -- 11:19AM, draco1119 wrote:

Oma, under your interpretation of the rules, a rogue with UMD can't use a staff. Under the rules AS EXPLICITLY WRITTEN, a rogue with UMD can use a staff. Ergo, your interpretation is wrong. It's really that simple.

where say that a rouge can cast from a Staff, the full description in the last updated rules say that is a separate UMD check and this check in her section is only for scrolls.

 Its stated in the srd under the description of UMD in the section use wand.. This use of the skill also applies to other spell trigger magic items, such as staffs.

yes you can trigger the item but still you need a ability score that you can't emulate, remember that a bard have use magical divice and any oher mage can use it as a CC skill never say that a rouge can use a staff

as example a Wizard can use spells from a staff of healing if he use the UMD check to active it as if he had the spells of the staff in her class spell list but he can't emulate the ability score but as a spell caster he use her own key ability to use the staff and if he like he can use her own CL too

Oma, both state that they allow you to use the item "as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list" So I am failing to see Your point.

And the Use a Scroll entry specifically states that the rules for using a Scroll (and thus for Emulate an Ability Score) also applies to other magic items.

That means you DO NOT have to have the spell in your class spell list to use these items with UMD.

Not sure you understand the phrase "as if" 

Nov 28, 2012 -- 11:48AM, Oma012 wrote:

as example a Wizard can use spells from a staff of healing if he use the UMD check to active it as if he had the spells of the staff in her class spell list but he can't emulate the ability score but as a spell caster he use her own key ability to use the staff and if he like he can use her own CL too

No Oma, to cast a Divine Spell he needs to have a Wisdom ability score, The Wizard's Inteligence score and the Wizard's CL in Wizardry will have absolutely ZERO effect on the Staff.

The Wizard, regardless of his level, would use the Staff's minimum CL and his Wisdom Ability Score for a Divine Spell, unless he choose to make the rolls to emulate a higher Wisdom Score and a higher Caster Level in the applicable class.

Nov 28, 2012 -- 11:55AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Oma, both state that they allow you to use the item "as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list" So I am failing to see Your point.

And the Use a Scroll entry specifically states that the rules for using a Scroll (and thus for Emulate an Ability Score) also applies to other magic items.

That means you DO NOT have to have the spell in your class spell list to use these items with UMD.

Not sure you understand the phrase "as if" 

sorry but only say that this UMD CHEK not the other UMD check that the description say that is separate.

yes as if you had it but you dont had it.

then the main point of why you as non spellcasting class cant use a staff is because you dont have any key ability for spells.

as example a rouge with 14 int, 14 wis and 14 cha try to use a staff to cast heal a spell level 6 that need you have at last 16 in your ability score then the staff need the key ability of the wilder to cast the spell but the rouge dont have any key ability, unlike in the case of a scroll when you only need the minimum key ability of the class of the one to made the scroll to cast it.

then in the case that the DM let you use the UMD to emulate the ability score to trigger the item you use your own ability score not a emulation as describet in the item to set the DC of the spell, the reazon of emulate is that you need that score for cast but in this case you use that score for cast from the staff unlike the wand or the scroll.

Then at last if you let this happen a rouge can use a fireball DC 10 and in D&D this can't be happen.

So who is going to say that the SRD description of Use Magic Device is wrong?  A few key things in it:

Use a Wand (DC = 20 from table)
Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand’s spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill also applies to other spell trigger magic items, such as staffs.

Emulate an Ability Score (DC = see text)
To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you’re emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don’t need to make this check.

Use a Scroll (DC = 20 + caster level)
If you are casting a spell from a scroll, you have to decipher it first. Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don’t have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

This use of the skill also applies to other spell completion magic items.

Now as much as I HATE to say it things lead me to believe you could NOT use UMD to Emulate an Ability Score.  This is because of the DC to Emulate Ability Score and its "see text" which just points to scrolls and needing a high enough ability score to use them; nothing is said about using it for other things but then again it doesn't specifically say it can't be used for other things except the DC seems to be base on scrolls.  To use UMD to emulate a higher Caster Level I'd say you need to use "Emulate Class feature" so your CL = UMD roll -20 but that is assuming you consider CL to be a "class feature" that can be emulated.

Now it seems pretty clear to me that someone can use UMD to activate a staff.  It would also seem to me that you need to use your ability modifier to set the save DC.  When it comes to the CL you use with a staff I guess I'm not seeing why you couldn't use any given CL you have when you activate it using UMD; if you activate it normally you'd obviously use the CL of the class which is using the Spell Trigger but with UMD there isn't one so either you could use any CL you possess or you'll be stuck using the Staff's CL.
 

It is made pretty clear from both entries in those rulesets that Wands and Scrolls are used as the most common examples, and states outright that these rulesets apply to other magic items.

Wands and Scrolls are the most common and affordable Magic items that the party is likely to find in treasure (or be able to purchase) both are available at level 1 on the treasure tables. Staves only roll on the medium and major treasure tables for example and are only a 3% chance to obtain on the Medium Treasure table (66-68%) as opposed to a Scroll or Wand 28% chance for either. And Staff prices start at 16,500 gp, Wands at 375 gp and Scrolls at 12 gp 5 sp. Not to mention Wizards come out of the box with Scribe Scroll.

Yes at level 6 the party has a 1% chance on a roll of 100 to get a 3% chance for Staff as opposed to a 40% chance to get up to 3 rolls (28%) for Scrolls/Wands.

So Yes, the skill description talks of Scrolls and Wands, because chances are those are the only type of Magic items that they will ever get their grubby Rogue hands on to use. Add to this the affordability of buying a couple of useful wands outright (pocket change really), there are even builds for a Rogue Wand-Slinger build.

sorry but only say that this UMD CHEK not the other UMD check that the description say that is separate

 
Oma "This use of the skill also applies" refers to the entire sub-heading heading above it, which would include, written under the rules for scrolls:
 
"If you don’t have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above)."

That is written directly in the rule that applies to other magic items, you can't pick and choose which part of the ruleset applies, the entire Sub-heading applies, simply replace Scroll with any other applicable Magic item.

Second, refering to the DC 10 Staff, the minimum UMD DC for a Wand/Staff is 20.

To emulate an Ability Score is the UMD roll minus 15, which means they will need a significantly high skill to get a decent Ability Score. 

For example, say at level 10 a Rogue has 13 Ranks in UMD, and a Char Modifier of +2, He has a less then 50% chance of rolling higher then his own ability so discounting the rolls that are equal or less) his average UMD result will be 15 (roll 15 + skill 15 minus 15 ability) so at most he will be adding a +1 or +2 DC to the spell.
  

Nov 29, 2012 -- 6:56AM, MrCustomer wrote:

read the description you can only use the effect of triggering not the one of emulate the ability score that is defined as other different check of UMD but clarifying that you need it in the case of a scroll, the emulate ability score description dont have the entry "can be used in other items that need an ability score".

the emulate ability score description say "To cast a spell from A SCROLL" never referred other kinds of items.

Oma, it refers to the entire ruleset for Casting a Scroll, which specifically refers to emulating an Ability Score: "If you don’t have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check "

And the reading of "This use of the skill also applies" is conclusively saying that for any magic item if you don't have a sufficient score in that ability you emulate the ability score with a seperate UMD check. If the above rule Emulate an Ability Score doesn't apply to other items then the seperate UMD check (because the rules for scrolls allows a seperate check) would by default with the same DC used to activate it, regardless of how high the Ability Score was.

Since that would be patently absurd, the Emulate an Ability Score is included in that rule "This use of the skill also applies"


I am actually on the fence on this one, the interpretation on if can apply to a Staff could go either way. But looking at the multiple rolls, and the relative DCs required, I don't see how it is broken. At best it gives a small boost to the DC, but is still well below what an equivelent level Wizard is capable of. 

As far as balance is concerned, a group relying on a Rogue with UMD as a primary spell caster needs any advantage it can get, and a group with a real spell caster in it would be wasteful to give a staff to a Rogue, and even if the Casters don't need it, it wouldn't be cost effective.

Nov 29, 2012 -- 8:47AM, MrCustomer wrote:

Oma, it refers to the entire ruleset for Casting a Scroll, which specifically refers to emulating an Ability Score: "If you don’t have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check "

And the reading of "This use of the skill also applies" is conclusively saying that for any magic item if you don't have a sufficient score in that ability you emulate the ability score with a seperate UMD check. If the above rule Emulate an Ability Score doesn't apply to other items then the seperate UMD check (because the rules for scrolls allows a seperate check) would by default with the same DC used to activate it, regardless of how high the Ability Score was.

Since that would be patently absurd, the Emulate an Ability Score is included in that rule "This use of the skill also applies"


I am actually on the fence on this one, the interpretation on if can apply to a Staff could go either way. But looking at the multiple rolls, and the relative DCs required, I don't see how it is broken. At best it gives a small boost to the DC, but is still well below what an equivelent level Wizard is capable of. 

As far as balance is concerned, a group relying on a Rogue with UMD as a primary spell caster needs any advantage it can get, and a group with a real spell caster in it would be wasteful to give a staff to a Rogue, and even if the Casters don't need it, it wouldn't be cost effective.

the staff dont have this entry in her use "casting a spell from a staff requires a minimum score" then this use of the skill don't apply in staff

That is where I am on the fence over it Oma, as I said, it will come down to the DM.

Myself looking at Staves, where you are looking at most Wands/Scrolls found in random treasure as "meh!" and have piles of them, you only have a 1% chance of a 3% chance to get a Staff in the treasure. Availability, affordability and practicality is going to make using a UMD for Staves as pretty non-existant for the most part.

Reliance on it as a Primary Spell Caster for a group would be almost laughable (and really a DM should let them have any edge they can find to make up for it) and it's not a cost effective strategy.

Additionally multiple rolls (any "1"s means he can't use it for 24 hours and possible negative mishap effects) that will only net him a small to modest boost isn't a game changer, and a Staff of Fire is 28,500 gp, a Wand of Fireball is 17,250 gp cheaper, close to 3 times the price. My opinion is go ahead you fool.

Ok, I'm not sure what's being argued about right now but let me say that if an foolish Rogue (WIS 6) did manage to active a Staff of the Woodlands use UMD the DC of the staff's spells with see the -2 WIS modifier and certainly not see the bonus from a high casting stat you'd normally see.  Is this practical?  No.  Is this how things would work?  I believe so.  Should the rogue be able to Emulate a higher WIS score?  Here I'm saying the rule so NOT allow it but if a DM decides to that is his houserule.

If you had a Spell Completion Item I'd allow Emulate Ability Score to function but when staves are Spell TRIGGER items there is nothing to hint that it can be done for them.

A Staff is just a super wand that can hold multiple spells while also looking to its user for some power.  If the user can provide more power in the form of caster levels that's great but if not there is still a minimum.  If the user happens to have the right insights (abilityscore) to use it more power to them but if they lack any insight into using the Staff it will be easier for targets to resists that use.
 

Nov 29, 2012 -- 11:54AM, StevenO wrote:

Ok, I'm not sure what's being argued about right now but let me say that if an foolish Rogue (WIS 6) did manage to active a Staff of the Woodlands use UMD the DC of the staff's spells with see the -2 WIS modifier and certainly not see the bonus from a high casting stat you'd normally see.  Is this practical?  No.  Is this how things would work?  I believe so.  Should the rogue be able to Emulate a higher WIS score?  Here I'm saying the rule so NOT allow it but if a DM decides to that is his houserule.

If you had a Spell Completion Item I'd allow Emulate Ability Score to function but when staves are Spell TRIGGER items there is nothing to hint that it can be done for them.

A Staff is just a super wand that can hold multiple spells while also looking to its user for some power.  If the user can provide more power in the form of caster levels that's great but if not there is still a minimum.  If the user happens to have the right insights (abilityscore) to use it more power to them but if they lack any insight into using the Staff it will be easier for targets to resists that use.
 

the problem is that the description of the staff use the key ability of the wilder as example

a bard took a staff of heal

he dont have heal and he use the UMD to use the staff as if the spell was in her spell list then he use her own key ability in this case CHA to set the DC of the staff and he can cast a heal from a staff made for a cleric.

the problem with the rouge is that he dont have the key ability score for the spells then he cant use a staff because the staff describe that use the key ability of the wilder for the DC and if you let a rouge use a staff the DC are Unknow and the rule of emulate an ability score dont talk about this special item.

Oma, Rogues have a Wisdom score, the DC is the Rogues Ability Score

What class is "red"?

I am all for a Rogue Emulating an Ability Score, that RAI is how Use Magic Device is supposed to work. And all we are talking here is a small bonus to the spell's DC (that really doesn't effect Heal spells or most spells at all unless someone is making a saving throw) It's such a minor quibble in most cases.

Even if You disalow Emulate an Ability Score to be used for a Staff, you would simply use the Rogues base ability score, either Wisdom for Divine Spells or the higher of his Int/Cha scores to set the Spell's DC. He doesn't need to emulate an ability score to use a Staff, he can use his normal ability.

Nov 29, 2012 -- 12:27PM, MrCustomer wrote:

Oma, Rogues have a Wisdom score, the DC is the Rogues Ability Score

What class is "red"?

I am all for a Rogue Emulating an Ability Score, that RAI is how Use Magic Device is supposed to work. And all we are talking here is a small bonus to the spell's DC (that really doesn't effect Heal spells or most spells at all unless someone is making a saving throw) It's such a minor quibble in most cases.

Even if You disalow Emulate an Ability Score to be used for a Staff, you would simply use the Rogues base ability score, either Wisdom for Divine Spells or the higher of his Int/Cha scores to set the Spell's DC. He doesn't need to emulate an ability score to use a Staff, he can use his normal ability.

unlike scrolls the staff say that you dont use the base ability score like a scroll you use your own key ability for your spells then if you can't cast spell you dont have key ability.

if a rouge try to use a staff he cant let the staff a key ability score then the staff can't work

but a bard can do her key ability score to the staff and use UMD to use it as if he had the spell of the staff in her own spell list thats is why he use her own ability key instead of the key ability standar for that spell then he use CHA instead of Wis in a divine spell.

Nov 29, 2012 -- 12:22PM, Oma012 wrote:

Spoiler: Show

Nov 29, 2012 -- 11:54AM, StevenO wrote:

Ok, I'm not sure what's being argued about right now but let me say that if an foolish Rogue (WIS 6) did manage to active a Staff of the Woodlands use UMD the DC of the staff's spells with see the -2 WIS modifier and certainly not see the bonus from a high casting stat you'd normally see.  Is this practical?  No.  Is this how things would work?  I believe so.  Should the rogue be able to Emulate a higher WIS score?  Here I'm saying the rule so NOT allow it but if a DM decides to that is his houserule.

If you had a Spell Completion Item I'd allow Emulate Ability Score to function but when staves are Spell TRIGGER items there is nothing to hint that it can be done for them.

A Staff is just a super wand that can hold multiple spells while also looking to its user for some power.  If the user can provide more power in the form of caster levels that's great but if not there is still a minimum.  If the user happens to have the right insights (abilityscore) to use it more power to them but if they lack any insight into using the Staff it will be easier for targets to resists that use.
 

the problem is that the description of the staff use the key ability of the wilder as example

a bard took a staff of heal

he dont have heal and he use the UMD to use the staff as if the spell was in her spell list then he use her own key ability in this case CHA to set the DC of the staff and he can cast a heal from a staff made for a cleric.

the problem with the rouge is that he dont have the key ability score for the spells then he cant use a staff because the staff describe that use the key ability of the wilder for the DC and if you let a rouge use a staff the DC are Unknow and the rule of emulate an ability score dont talk about this special item.

A problem with your example:  Heal is NOT a choice on the Staff of Healing but there are spells on it that a bard can and can not use.

Now with a Staff of Healing a Bard, any bard, can use it to Cure Moderate Wounds without making any kind of check at all and using his CL and CHA modifier to set a DC if needed.  The other three spells are not on his spell list so he would need to roll UMD to use any of them.  The rules for UMD CLEARLY state that it is possible to use that skill to make a staff work (and if you don't think UMD can make a staff work for the roller then you're are just wrong) although I guess there is a lot of room for aguing how ability modifiers and caster levels can play into things.  As I look at things I see a few options for when a Bard uses UMD to activate save Remove Disease.

1.  Bard uses his own CL(or staff's CL8) and ability modifier of his casting type (CHA) when using Remove Disease.

2.  Bard uses own CL (or staff's) but uses his WIS modifier to set DC as spell is only usable by WIS based caster.

3.  Because spell is not a Bard spell he must use staff's CL but uses his WIS modifier to set DC as #2.

4.  Because spell is not on class list must use staff's CL but doesn't make any modifications to DC based on ability scores because character doesn't normally have the capacity to use the spell.

A rogue using UMD would only have the last two possibilites as it doesn't have a caster level.  An Ultimate Magus how used UMD on the staff to power that would then have two options when it comes to choices #1 and #2 as it has two different CLs and possibly even two different casting stats.

I guess Oma would like to say that this would the only choice available:
5.  Staff of Healing can not be used to Remove Disease unless you have Cure Disease on list of class spells.

The BIG problem with this last one is that the text of UMD explicitly says you could use the staff but if this last one is the "right" answer they would be no need to use UMD in the first place.

Oma, are you telling me that a Rogue could NOT use a Staff of Healing to Cure Serious Wounds with a UMD check but CAN use a Wand of Cure Serious Wounds with an identical check?  Either would take a DC 20 UMD check to active.  The Wand clearly heals 3d8+5 hp of damage (DC 14 if needed) as it uses CL 5 but the Staff is a lot more questionable.  Without its own CL the damage the Rogue heals using CSW from a staff will be 3d8+8 as the staff provides CL 8 (not much improvement for an item that cost more then twice as much) but I guess we can all agrue about what the DC will be if needed.  Does it bottom out at DC 14 or can it go lower with a poor ability score and if so what ability score to use?

I agree that the color red can't use a staff (although staffs could certainly be painted rouge)

However a Staff is a Spell Trigger item and as such doesn't require a minimum Ability Score to use, reference Spell Trigger Items. This is different then a Spell Completion Item, which does require a Minimum Ability Score to use.

The Rogue (regardless of his color and race) would use his own Ability Score to set the DC for the spell, he doesn't need to meet the minimum score to cast the spell because it is a spell trigger item.

Nov 29, 2012 -- 1:21PM, StevenO wrote:

Nov 29, 2012 -- 12:22PM, Oma012 wrote:

Spoiler: Show

Nov 29, 2012 -- 11:54AM, StevenO wrote:

Ok, I'm not sure what's being argued about right now but let me say that if an foolish Rogue (WIS 6) did manage to active a Staff of the Woodlands use UMD the DC of the staff's spells with see the -2 WIS modifier and certainly not see the bonus from a high casting stat you'd normally see.  Is this practical?  No.  Is this how things would work?  I believe so.  Should the rogue be able to Emulate a higher WIS score?  Here I'm saying the rule so NOT allow it but if a DM decides to that is his houserule.

If you had a Spell Completion Item I'd allow Emulate Ability Score to function but when staves are Spell TRIGGER items there is nothing to hint that it can be done for them.

A Staff is just a super wand that can hold multiple spells while also looking to its user for some power.  If the user can provide more power in the form of caster levels that's great but if not there is still a minimum.  If the user happens to have the right insights (abilityscore) to use it more power to them but if they lack any insight into using the Staff it will be easier for targets to resists that use.
 

the problem is that the description of the staff use the key ability of the wilder as example

a bard took a staff of heal

he dont have heal and he use the UMD to use the staff as if the spell was in her spell list then he use her own key ability in this case CHA to set the DC of the staff and he can cast a heal from a staff made for a cleric.

the problem with the rouge is that he dont have the key ability score for the spells then he cant use a staff because the staff describe that use the key ability of the wilder for the DC and if you let a rouge use a staff the DC are Unknow and the rule of emulate an ability score dont talk about this special item.

A problem with your example:  Heal is NOT a choice on the Staff of Healing but there are spells on it that a bard can and can not use.

Now with a Staff of Healing a Bard, any bard, can use it to Cure Moderate Wounds without making any kind of check at all and using his CL and CHA modifier to set a DC if needed.  The other three spells are not on his spell list so he would need to roll UMD to use any of them.  The rules for UMD CLEARLY state that it is possible to use that skill to make a staff work (and if you don't think UMD can make a staff work for the roller then you're are just wrong) although I guess there is a lot of room for aguing how ability modifiers and caster levels can play into things.  As I look at things I see a few options for when a Bard uses UMD to activate save Remove Disease.

1.  Bard uses his own CL(or staff's CL8) and ability modifier of his casting type (CHA) when using Remove Disease.

2.  Bard uses own CL (or staff's) but uses his WIS modifier to set DC as spell is only usable by WIS based caster.

3.  Because spell is not a Bard spell he must use staff's CL but uses his WIS modifier to set DC as #2.

4.  Because spell is not on class list must use staff's CL but doesn't make any modifications to DC based on ability scores because character doesn't normally have the capacity to use the spell.

A rogue using UMD would only have the last two possibilites as it doesn't have a caster level.  An Ultimate Magus how used UMD on the staff to power that would then have two options when it comes to choices #1 and #2 as it has two different CLs and possibly even two different casting stats.

I guess Oma would like to say that this would the only choice available:
5.  Staff of Healing can not be used to Remove Disease unless you have Cure Disease on list of class spells.

The BIG problem with this last one is that the text of UMD explicitly says you could use the staff but if this last one is the "right" answer they would be no need to use UMD in the first place.

Oma, are you telling me that a Rogue could NOT use a Staff of Healing to Cure Serious Wounds with a UMD check but CAN use a Wand of Cure Serious Wounds with an identical check?  Either would take a DC 20 UMD check to active.  The Wand clearly heals 3d8+5 hp of damage (DC 14 if needed) as it uses CL 5 but the Staff is a lot more questionable.  Without its own CL the damage the Rogue heals using CSW from a staff will be 3d8+8 as the staff provides CL 8 (not much improvement for an item that cost more then twice as much) but I guess we can all agrue about what the DC will be if needed.  Does it bottom out at DC 14 or can it go lower with a poor ability score and if so what ability score to use?

yes the UMD say that you can trigger it and what is trigger???

Spell Trigger

To use a spell trigger item, the user must first know what spell the item stores
(unless he is activating the item blindly using Use Magic Device).

Activating the item requires the user to have the spell stored in the item on his spell list and to speak a word.

Even a character who can’t cast the spell stored in the item can use it from a spell trigger item as
long as that spell is on his spell list.

This is the case even for a member of a class that eventually grants spells but who can’t actually cast spells yet, such as a 3rd-level paladin.

A domain spell is on a user’s spell list only if the user has access to that domain.

Activating a spell trigger item takes the same amount of time as the casting time of the spell
that the item stores, but activating the item doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. You
can’t activate a spell trigger item in the area of a silence spell or if unable to speak.

Staffs and Wands: To activate a staff or wand, the user must hold the item toward the target or area in a hand or similar appendage. A wand can be used while the user is grappling, but a staff can’t.

Staffs use the wielder’s relevant ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells.
Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder CAN use his caster level when activating a staff if that caster level is higher than the staff’s.
He can also use Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration to overcome spell resistance when using spells cast from a staff.

-Then as example if you as bard level 1 use a staff that have cure light wounds and cure moderate wounds the bard use her own key ability not the key ability of the cleric for the spell he can't cast as normal now in the case of this staff have heal too he still use it as if the spell had in her spell list then he use CHA instead of Wis because he can use her own caster level then how are you saying that him cast with wis but he use her own CL in this case you need to say that he can only use the standard CL of the item to do this spell.

- Now the rouge can't use a staff that unlike the wand use the ability key of the wielder but he can use a wand that only need a trigger.

- the staff is a item for Spell Caster in mind not warriors or non spell caster, this mean that if some warrior orc with INT, WIS and CHA of 6 one rank un UMD and an item of +30 in UMD can use a staff to use meteore swarm???? the staff is supposed to use the magical power of the wearer.

Oma, lets not highlight and mis-quote half a sentence ok.

"Staffs use the wielder’s relevant ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells"

You forgot "and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells"

That is all the Staff uses the ability score for. Otherwise as a Spell Trigger item you only need to have the spell on your spell list, which UMD gives.

You use your relevant ability score (Int or Cha for Arcane spell, Wisdom for Divine spells) to set the DC for saves, and that is All. Otherwise it works as a Wand in this respect.


StevenO

You need to keep in Mind that the Arcane spell Cure Light Wounds  is on a Bard's spell list, the Divine spell Cure Light Wounds is not, so the relevant ability score when using a Divine spell would always be Wisdom. A Bard would actually need to use UMD for Divine Scrolls, Wands and Staffs, even though he has the Arcane versions. Or at least that has been my understanding, and you will see that Cure Light Wounds appears under both Divine and Arcane scrolls for this reason.

Nov 29, 2012 -- 2:05PM, MrCustomer wrote:

Oma, lets not highlight and mis-quote half a sentence ok.

"Staffs use the wielder’s relevant ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells"

You forgot "and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells"

That is all the Staff uses the ability score for. Otherwise as a Spell Trigger item you only need to have the spell on your spell list, which UMD gives.

You use your relevant ability score (Int or Cha for Arcane spell, Wisdom for Divine spells) to set the DC for saves, and that is All. Otherwise it works as a Wand in this respect.


StevenO

You need to keep in Mind that the Arcane spell Cure Light Wounds  is on a Bard's spell list, the Divine spell Cure Light Wounds is not, so the relevant ability score when using a Divine spell would always be Wisdom. A Bard would actually need to use UMD for Divine Scrolls, Wands and Staffs, even though he has the Arcane versions. Or at least that has been my understanding, and you will see that Cure Light Wounds appears under both Divine and Arcane scrolls for this reason.

yes i was saying that, but the rules never say that if you can use the base ability as standard (Divine wis or arcane int,cha) and if you let your player do it he still can't emulate the ability score.

and as general rule you can make a fireball with a DC lower that 14. and this can be happen if you do a nonspell caster use a staff, again this item have as fact that someone with key ability score in spell going to use it unlike wands and scrolls that are maded for rouges.

then because the item dont say nothing to what happen if you dont have key ability then maybe you can use the standard (Divine wis or arcane int,cha) but still you need have the minimum ability score to cast the spell as general rules described and you can't emulate this ability score because in this case is used.

Nov 29, 2012 -- 2:05PM, MrCustomer wrote:

StevenO

You need to keep in Mind that the Arcane spell Cure Light Wounds  is on a Bard's spell list, the Divine spell Cure Light Wounds is not, so the relevant ability score when using a Divine spell would always be Wisdom. A Bard would actually need to use UMD for Divine Scrolls, Wands and Staffs, even though he has the Arcane versions. Or at least that has been my understanding, and you will see that Cure Light Wounds appears under both Divine and Arcane scrolls for this reason.

I'm aware of the differences between the Bard's Arcane cure spells and the normal divine cure spells.  A sad thing here is that there is nothing that says if a staff is arcane or divine.  I know we can generally look at a staff and make a call but there are plenty of spells that appear on mulitple spell lists which could appear in a staff.  Most of the spells in a Staff of Passage are avaiable to cleric and a Staff of Divination also has its spells shared between multiple caster types.  While you may be able to specify the spell in a wand as Arcane or Divine I don't see anything in the SRD that says you must determine what typ of spell it holds.  I'll acknowledge the difference between and arcane and divine scroll that both contain "Cure Light Wounds" but I don't think I'll put that distinction on a Wand of Cure Light Wounds.


I do get a kick out of Oma using the rules for Spell Trigger items to say UMD can't be used by a Rogue to use a staff.  Wands also are spell trigger items so if UMD can't power a Staff because of all the various things then it also couldn't be used to power a Wand and we should all see how crazy/stupid that idea is.

Nov 29, 2012 -- 2:36PM, StevenO wrote:

Nov 29, 2012 -- 2:05PM, MrCustomer wrote:

StevenO

You need to keep in Mind that the Arcane spell Cure Light Wounds  is on a Bard's spell list, the Divine spell Cure Light Wounds is not, so the relevant ability score when using a Divine spell would always be Wisdom. A Bard would actually need to use UMD for Divine Scrolls, Wands and Staffs, even though he has the Arcane versions. Or at least that has been my understanding, and you will see that Cure Light Wounds appears under both Divine and Arcane scrolls for this reason.

I'm aware of the differences between the Bard's Arcane cure spells and the normal divine cure spells.  A sad thing here is that there is nothing that says if a staff is arcane or divine.  I know we can generally look at a staff and make a call but there are plenty of spells that appear on mulitple spell lists which could appear in a staff.  Most of the spells in a Staff of Passage are avaiable to cleric and a Staff of Divination also has its spells shared between multiple caster types.  While you may be able to specify the spell in a wand as Arcane or Divine I don't see anything in the SRD that says you must determine what typ of spell it holds.  I'll acknowledge the difference between and arcane and divine scroll that both contain "Cure Light Wounds" but I don't think I'll put that distinction on a Wand of Cure Light Wounds.


I do get a kick out of Oma using the rules for Spell Trigger items to say UMD can't be used by a Rogue to use a staff.  Wands also are spell trigger items so if UMD can't power a Staff because of all the various things then it also couldn't be used to power a Wand and we should all see how crazy/stupid that idea is.

sorry but a wand unlike a staff/scroll are only a trigger item

now a scroll need you have the minimum ability score to cast the spell but you dont apply it, then if you emule a 20 in your score the wand DC only is 14 for a level 3 spell

now staff need use your own ability score relevant to set the DC of the spell now you can't emulate the ability score in this case and the staff dont have the entry of what ability score use (the scroll have this entry arcane and divine scrolls) now you need use your own ability score as defined in the staff description to set the DC and again as example a bard that use heal from a staff use her own CHA ability score and can use her CL if he like then a LV 20 bard with CHA of 30 can use heal as CL 20 with a DC 26 from the staff.

Nov 29, 2012 -- 3:03PM, Oma012 wrote:

sorry but a wand unlike a staff/scroll are only a trigger item.

Sorry, but a wand is a spell trigger item (just like a staff);  a scroll is a spell completion item (DMG, pg 213;  your beloved RC, pg 84;  et al.).

Nov 29, 2012 -- 3:23PM, Alsebra wrote:

Nov 29, 2012 -- 3:03PM, Oma012 wrote:

sorry but a wand unlike a staff/scroll are only a trigger item.

Sorry, but a wand is a spell trigger item (just like a staff);  a scroll is a spell completion item (DMG, pg 213;  your beloved RC, pg 84;  et al.).

yes but the scroll need a minimum ability score and the staff need a ability score to use
then the wand need be triggered but the scroll need also the minimum ability score and the staff need also the ability score to use then the wand unlike the staff or the scroll only need be triggered to be used.

Nov 29, 2012 -- 3:03PM, Oma012 wrote:

sorry but a wand unlike a staff/scroll are only a trigger item

You REALLY need to read up on the rules for Staffs.  While you can follow the link here is are the basics:
 

Staffs

A staff is a long shaft of wood that stores several spells. Unlike wands, which can contain a wide variety of spells, each staff is of a certain kind and holds specific spells. A staff has 50 charges when created.

Activation

Staffs use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a staff is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast, however, has a longer casting time than 1 standard action, it takes that long to cast the spell from a staff.) To activate a staff, a character must hold it forth in at least one hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for nonhumanoid creatures).

There you are, clear as day.  A staff is a spell trigger item and when you try saying otherwise you just paint yourself in a poorer and poorer light.  It says nothing about NEEDING a certain ability score to be able to use a staff.

 

Nov 29, 2012 -- 3:37PM, StevenO wrote:

Nov 29, 2012 -- 3:03PM, Oma012 wrote:

sorry but a wand unlike a staff/scroll are only a trigger item

You REALLY need to read up on the rules for Staffs.  While you can follow the link here is are the basics:
 

Staffs

A staff is a long shaft of wood that stores several spells. Unlike wands, which can contain a wide variety of spells, each staff is of a certain kind and holds specific spells. A staff has 50 charges when created.

Activation

Staffs use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a staff is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast, however, has a longer casting time than 1 standard action, it takes that long to cast the spell from a staff.) To activate a staff, a character must hold it forth in at least one hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for nonhumanoid creatures).

There you are, clear as day.  A staff is a spell trigger item and when you try saying otherwise you just paint yourself in a poorer and poorer light.  It says nothing about NEEDING a certain ability score to be able to use a staff.

 

yes and what is a trigger item.

Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

but in this part never speak about ability score.

-Now what say the staff decription????

Staff Descriptions

Staffs use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff.

This means that staffs are far more potent in the hands of a powerful spellcaster. Because they use the wielder’s ability score to set the save DC for the spell, spells from a staff are often harder to resist than ones from other magic items, which use the minimum ability score required to cast the spell. Not only are aspects of the spell dependant on caster level (range, duration, and so on) potentially higher, but spells from a staff are harder to dispel and have a better chance of overcoming a target’s spell resistance.

Furthermore, a staff can hold a spell of any level, unlike a wand, which is limited to spells of 4th level or lower. The minimum caster level of a staff is 8th. Standard staffs are described below.

-Now what happen if you give an minimum ability score, then you go to the general rule and this rule say that if you don't have the minimum you can't cast.

again if a bard use heal from a staff and can use her own CL then he use her own ability key as described in the staff description because is like if the spell was in her class spell list.

sorry but a wand unlike a staff/scroll are only a trigger item

 yes and what is a trigger item.

 Sorry, but which is it?  Didn't you just say that a Staff is NOT a trigger item but now you say that yes it is?  If you could just get your story straight and be consistent that would help.

Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

but in this part never speak about ability score.

-Now what say the staff decription????

Staffs use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff.

...

-Now what happen if you give an minimum ability score, then you go to the general rule and this rule say that if you don't have the minimum you can't cast.

again if a bard use heal from a staff and can use her own CL then he use her own ability key as described in the staff description because is like if the spell was in her class spell list.

So your first set of underlined text implies that you can NOT use a Spell trigger device without having the spell.  Ok.  So does that mean that the UMD skill doesn't allow you to break that rule?  I believe that is the whole purpose of that skill.  The second set of underlined text just mentions that you use the wielder's abiltiy score and relevant feat to set the DC; last time I checked most people using UMD are going to have ability scores to use to set the DC.

There is NOTHING that says you need to have a certain ability score to use a staff.  An INT 8 wizard, yes such a thing is legal, can use all the functions of a Staff of Power despite being completely unable to cast any wizard spells.  Now the DC of those spells may suffer greatly but it can be done.

StevenO, The Staff of Healing is Divine, this can be determined by the CL and spells used, all items in the DMG use the Core Classes, Only one of those spells is on the Bard list, the other three are Cleric/Paladin/Ranger/Druid.


I think some DMs, because a Bard uses Charisma, allow them to use items with Divine versions of their spells, but it's debatable if Charisma can be considered Divine.  

Oma, you are right, the Spell Trigger doesn't say anything about Ability Scores. That's because it isn't relevant because Spell Trigger, like Command Items, don't require you to have the CL and Ability Score to cast a spell, you are simply Triggering a spell that is already cast.

Spell Completion requires you to finish casting the spell, you are in fact Casting a spell with a scroll. With a Wand or Staff, you are simply Triggering the spell. No Ability Score is needed.

This is the same really as stepping on a trap, arguing that the trap doesn't go off when you trigger it because you don't have the spell in your spell list or a high enough ability score would likely get you pelted with dice at the game table.

The Staff only states that you use your own Ability Score to set the Save DC of a spell, Nothing else. Anything beyond that is not in the rules. Spell Trigger items only require that you have the spell in your spell list, and that is all that is required. If ability scores were required it would state this, just as it states it in Spell Completion rules.

MrC: Charisma can be used for divine classes. Favored Soul.

That makes sense draco, and I agree that Charisma can be used Divinely, Paladin's divine abilities, Turn Undead etc makes that clear, which I think is why DMs allow Bards to use items, such as Scrolls and Wands that have divine versions of their spells.

So it can be acceptable for a Bard to use his Charisma score when activating a divine staff with UMD, if the DM agrees with that premise.

However the Bard's spells are still Arcane in nature, he casts arcane spells as a Sorceror.

Sorcerors/Wizards also share spells with Clerics/Druids, this is no different then a Bard, and the Wizard and Cleric Scrolls of the same spells are not interchangeable. ie A Cleric Can't cast a spell from the Arcane Scroll and a Wizard can't cast a spell from a Divine Scroll 

This is the rule under Scrolls:

"The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.)"

Because Cure spells are seen universally as being divine, I believe that some just assume that because it is on the bard Spell list that they have access to some "divine" spells in a unique way, but it really isn't as there are many such shared spells with Wizard/Sorceror
   

Nov 29, 2012 -- 8:34PM, StevenO wrote:

No, i am saying that a staff not is only a trigger item, the staff need also an ability score while the wand only need a trigger.

Now the UMD only ONLY let you use the trigger item as if you had the spell in your class list, is the only that you can do for a trigger item if you have UMD, but the staff have a special entry "use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells"
and in this the UMD can't help because this a entry are of the staff not of the trigger item.

The rule dont say nothing about what kind of stat you use, this item are made for spellcaster and as described use the wilder ability score, but what happen if the wilder dont have un key ability??? the rule dont say nothing but the more similar is the rules of the scrolls (Arcane with Int or Cha, Divine with Wis) but still because dont is a general rule is a DM discretion.

Now if a wizard take a staff of power with a Int of 8, because of the staff rule dont say nothing you need to go to the general rule then he cant cast any spell because her low Int.

And about of the trigger item yes you dont need any ability score or CL because the item put all but in this case the staff need the magical power of the wielder as described as specified rule of the staff then this break the general rule to use this item like a cleric with rebuke undead can cowered an undead immune to fear.

Nov 30, 2012 -- 7:30AM, draco1119 wrote:

MrC: Charisma can be used for divine classes. Favored Soul.

The items rule say in scrolls that any divine scroll use wisdom (because the standard rule say that all item was made for wizard and clerics.)

Nov 30, 2012 -- 9:19AM, Oma012 wrote:

No, i am saying that a staff not is only a trigger item, the staff need also an ability score while the wand only need a trigger.

Now the UMD only ONLY let you use the trigger item as if you had the spell in your class list, is the only that you can do for a trigger item if you have UMD, but the staff have a special entry "use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells"
and in this the UMD can't help because this a entry are of the staff not of the trigger item.
Spoiler: Show

The rule dont say nothing about what kind of stat you use, this item are made for spellcaster and as described use the wilder ability score, but what happen if the wilder dont have un key ability??? the rule dont say nothing but the more similar is the rules of the scrolls (Arcane with Int or Cha, Divine with Wis) but still because dont is a general rule is a DM discretion.

Now if a wizard take a staff of power with a Int of 8, because of the staff rule dont say nothing you need to go to the general rule then he cant cast any spell because her low Int.

And about of the trigger item yes you dont need any ability score or CL because the item put all but in this case the staff need the magical power of the wielder as described as specified rule of the staff then this break the general rule to use this item like a cleric with rebuke undead can cowered an undead immune to fear.

But the staff IS only a Spell Trigger item.  There is nothing about needing a certain ability score to use some effect from a staff.  The only place you'll start seeing the rules talk about ability scores with a staff is when you are setting the DC for the staff's spells.  Even the text you highlight just mentions using an ability modifier "to set the DC for saves against their spells".  There's nothing about needing a certain ability score to use a staff.

Maybe you don't realize this but all a staff is in DnD is a super powered wand that eliminates the spell level cap.  Additionally it often has a higher base caster level and also included the ability to supplement your own spellcasting skill with that of the staff/superwand spell.

Nov 30, 2012 -- 10:40AM, StevenO wrote:

Nov 30, 2012 -- 9:19AM, Oma012 wrote:

No, i am saying that a staff not is only a trigger item, the staff need also an ability score while the wand only need a trigger.

Now the UMD only ONLY let you use the trigger item as if you had the spell in your class list, is the only that you can do for a trigger item if you have UMD, but the staff have a special entry "use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells"
and in this the UMD can't help because this a entry are of the staff not of the trigger item.
Spoiler: Show

The rule dont say nothing about what kind of stat you use, this item are made for spellcaster and as described use the wilder ability score, but what happen if the wilder dont have un key ability??? the rule dont say nothing but the more similar is the rules of the scrolls (Arcane with Int or Cha, Divine with Wis) but still because dont is a general rule is a DM discretion.

Now if a wizard take a staff of power with a Int of 8, because of the staff rule dont say nothing you need to go to the general rule then he cant cast any spell because her low Int.

And about of the trigger item yes you dont need any ability score or CL because the item put all but in this case the staff need the magical power of the wielder as described as specified rule of the staff then this break the general rule to use this item like a cleric with rebuke undead can cowered an undead immune to fear.

But the staff IS only a Spell Trigger item.  There is nothing about needing a certain ability score to use some effect from a staff.  The only place you'll start seeing the rules talk about ability scores with a staff is when you are setting the DC for the staff's spells.  Even the text you highlight just mentions using an ability modifier "to set the DC for saves against their spells".  There's nothing about needing a certain ability score to use a staff.

Maybe you don't realize this but all a staff is in DnD is a super powered wand that eliminates the spell level cap.  Additionally it often has a higher base caster level and also included the ability to supplement your own spellcasting skill with that of the staff/superwand spell.

nothing about needin???

the staff are a powerful item for spellcasting and it say under her specific description that NEED the ability score of the wielder, now unlike a wand this item are made for spellcaster because it use the ability score of the wielder then use the KEY ability score as example a sorserer that took a staff dont use it use her KEY ability because the spell are for her SPELL LIST, now a Bard that use UMD for use a staff as if the spell was in her spell list and use her key ability score in this case CHA and if he like can use her own CL in the spell if he like as if the spell was casting for him.

The staff only say that use your relevant ability score for set the DC but if you dont get it then you can't use it like a rouge that use a scroll and dont have the sufficient ability score.

I looked at the Favored Soul, and although they use Charisma to determine what spells they can cast, they use Wisdom to determine the Spell's DC. So a bard using a Divine Staff would need to use his Wisdom Score to set the DC. So I would still make a Bard use thier Wisdom Score in regard to Divine Magic Items.

Nov 30, 2012 -- 11:10AM, Oma012 wrote:

the staff are a powerful item for spellcasting and it say under her specific description that NEED the ability score of the wielder, now unlike a wand this item are made for spellcaster because it use the ability score of the wielder then use the KEY ability score.

Here is the thing Oma, it doesn't say that word "NEED" at all in the description, what it says is "use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells"  It doesn't say it "NEED"s anything or that it has to be a minimum score. It is a spell trigger item and doesn't need to have a minimum ability score.


Scrolls do and they specify so under scrolls "The user must have the requisite ability score." if this was the case for Staffs it would say so in much the same language and it doesn't.

Nov 30, 2012 -- 11:29AM, MrCustomer wrote:

I looked at the Favored Soul, and although they use Charisma to determine what spells they can cast, they use Wisdom to determine the Spell's DC. So a bard using a Divine Staff would need to use his Wisdom Score to set the DC. So I would still make a Bard use thier Wisdom Score in regard to Divine Magic Items.

Sorry but this apply only with the spells of a Favored Soul still if a favored soul with UMD use a wizard staff he use her own WIS as described in her class spell list to set the DC of the spell in the staff.

then what happen if some creature with non-ability score in INT use with use magic divice a Staff???? the rule say that you use your ability score then you need that ability score, not are described in the rules what happen if someone don't have this ability score then you can't let someone to dont have it use the staff but as a DM discretion you can but under the rules dont are supported.

Oma are you so hung up on disagreeing with me that you will even disgree with me while I am agreeing with you? You are rambling nonsense at this point.

Using a Divine Staff uses the "relevant" ability score, which for Divine spells is Wisdom, Even Favored Souls use Wisdom.

An Arcane Staff is Inteligence or Charisma. Either one can be used.

A Creature without an Int score would have to use Charisma, if it had neither Int or Wisdom then it would not be a creature. Not sure how an object would use a Staff or the skill UMD even, but I suppose the DM would wing it.    

Nov 30, 2012 -- 12:32PM, MrCustomer wrote:

Oma are you so hung up on disagreeing with me that you will even disgree with me while I am agreeing with you? You are rambling nonsense at this point.

Using a Divine Staff uses the "relevant" ability score, which for Divine spells is Wisdom, Even Favored Souls use Wisdom.

An Arcane Staff is Inteligence or Charisma. Either one can be used.

A Creature without an Int score would have to use Charisma, if it had neither Int or Wisdom then it would not be a creature. Not sure how an object would use a Staff or the skill UMD even, but I suppose the DM would wing it.    

¬¬ and the shugenja's?????

A shugenja's use her CHA to set the DC of her DIVINE spells and if he use a rod of a wizard or of a cleric he still use her relevant ability score to set the DC in this case CHA.

Nov 30, 2012 -- 11:47AM, Oma012 wrote:

then what happen if some creature with non-ability score in INT use with use magic divice a Staff???? the rule say that you use your ability score then you need that ability score, not are described in the rules what happen if someone don't have this ability score then you can't let someone to dont have it use the staff but as a DM discretion you can but under the rules dont are supported.

This is really grasping at straws.  What creatures without any INT have any skill ranks?  I know some of them can make certain checks but they still don't have any ranks in a skill.  You REALLY need to show me an example of something with no INT (or a non-ability in INT if you prefer those terms) that can use UMD.

Intelligence

Any creature that can think, learn, or remember has at least 1 point of Intelligence. A creature with no Intelligence score is mindless, an automaton operating on simple instincts or programmed instructions. It has immunity to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) and automatically fails Intelligence checks.

Mindless creatures do not gain feats or skills, although they may have bonus feats or racial skill bonuses.

If by some miraculous twist of fate something with a non-ability score in the "casting stat" could sucessfully use UMD to activate a staff it seems to me like you'll get to ignore the ability modifier all together when calculating the save.

Nov 30, 2012 -- 2:34PM, StevenO wrote:

then you are agree with that a spell form a staff can have a DC lower that the Standard for items instead of dont let the creature do the spell???

then if a favored sould make a scroll this scroll can come with a DC as example for a spell level 3 with a DC of 10????

Nov 30, 2012 -- 3:27PM, Oma012 wrote:

then you are agree with that a spell form a staff can have a DC lower that the Standard for items instead of dont let the creature do the spell???

I certainly can see a spell from a staff having a lower save DC then would be normally expected.  I'll admit there are several ways one could see using UMD to activate a staff and how ability scores and any CL present act but I've always said that someone with UMD could use a staff.  It seem to me that YOU are the one who keeps saying that some people couldn't use UMD to activate a staff.

then if a favored sould make a scroll this scroll can come with a DC as example for a spell level 3 with a DC of 10????

I'll need to do some looking at the class again before making any calls on this but it maybe possible.

Now maybe you could address your comments about something with no INT using UMD to activate a staff.  You seemed to want to use that to say UMD can't always power a staff but that runs into the big problem of actually happening if you're using the rules most of us know.

Nov 30, 2012 -- 3:57PM, StevenO wrote:

Nov 30, 2012 -- 3:27PM, Oma012 wrote:

then you are agree with that a spell form a staff can have a DC lower that the Standard for items instead of dont let the creature do the spell???

I certainly can see a spell from a staff having a lower save DC then would be normally expected.  I'll admit there are several ways one could see using UMD to activate a staff and how ability scores and any CL present act but I've always said that someone with UMD could use a staff.  It seem to me that YOU are the one who keeps saying that some people couldn't use UMD to activate a staff.

then if a favored sould make a scroll this scroll can come with a DC as example for a spell level 3 with a DC of 10????

I'll need to do some looking at the class again before making any calls on this but it maybe possible.

Now maybe you could address your comments about something with no INT using UMD to activate a staff.  You seemed to want to use that to say UMD can't always power a staff but that runs into the big problem of actually happening if you're using the rules most of us know.

SAVING THROWS AGAINST MAGIC ITEM POWERS

Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell. (in the case of a favored soul this is as standard but this means that a FS with 1 of wis can make scroll to have greater DC, in this case i think is better use the -5 but the standard say that items always come form wizars,Sorserers,clerics,Druids)

Staffs are an exception to the rule. Treat the saving throw as if the wielder cast the spell (as if the bard cast heal), including caster level and all modifiers to save DC.

Most item descriptions give saving throw DCs for various effects, particularly when the effect has no exact spell equivalent (making its level otherwise difficult to determine quickly).

Nov 30, 2012 -- 1:46PM, Oma012 wrote:

  ¬¬ and the shugenja's?????

A shugenja's use her CHA to set the DC of her DIVINE spells and if he use a rod of a wizard or of a cleric he still use her relevant ability score to set the DC in this case CHA.

Oma, I did not know that. That being the case, a DM could allow a Bard or Rogue with UMD to use either their Charisma or Wisdom for divine magic items. However The still can't use their Intiligence for Divine, nor their Wisdom for Arcane.

I say a DM could allow, because the classes in Complete Divine could be considered as exceptions to the rule, and a DM is free to restrict those classes (and thus deny Charisma being used for Divine) or as being potentially abusive. Optional rules exists where Constitution is used to cast, so it makes sense to view these as exceptions and not allow them outside of those exceptions. Either way would be correct, I have no issue with allowing it.

Staves and scrolls still require the relevant Ability score, a Rogue can't use his Dexterity score for it. So Divine is still Wisdom (and possibly Charisma) and Arcane is still Inteligence/Charisma.