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6 months ago ::
Nov 29, 2012 - 1:58PM
#11
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2004
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The author of the article gives terrible advice overall.
His advice appears spot on to me. Lots of different stuff there.
The idea that you should not get or use PHB1 or 2 classes is shamefully bad advice.
He does not say that. He merely says "consider avoiding any books published before September 2010", which is good advice because they do not contain the copious errata. The PHB1 & 2 classes are still available in DDI's character generator (which he recommends getting a subscription to). I agree with his advice even though I personally only play classes from PHB1.
Other than this, was there other stuff you disagreed with?
(to be fair though: I did find PHB1's presentation to be superior to the essentials books)
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6 months ago ::
Nov 29, 2012 - 2:30PM
#12
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Date Joined:
Jun 30, 2008
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He says that you should get DDI because its lets you build your essentials PCs quickly. Never once does he in any way advise that you should use DDI to make a preessentials PC, let alone even look at them to see if you might like them.
If your issue is the errata then you can download the errated PHB1 classes and paragon paths that are fully available for free online.
If he said "buy all this stuff and check out the DDI versions of the older classes to see if you like those" the advice would be fine. But he says avoid those materials, which is bad advice.
my handbooks & builds
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6 months ago ::
Nov 29, 2012 - 6:29PM
#13
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Date Joined:
Jun 19, 2004
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If he said "buy all this stuff and check out the DDI versions of the older classes to see if you like those" the advice would be fine. But he says avoid those materials, which is bad advice.
+1
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out hereSpoiler:
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here
If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here
Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
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6 months ago ::
Nov 30, 2012 - 3:23AM
#14
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Date Joined:
Oct 25, 2009
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Yeah, slyflourish has always been extremly essentials and anti-4e biased...
What are you talking about?
Slyflourish has been a HUGE supporter of 4e over the years. In fact, he continues to support it heavily by being one of the few big name D&D bloggers who hasn't switched all of his attention over to D&D Next.
Don't forget, this is the guy that literally wrote the book on epic tier (and good luck to anyone who tries to run an epic tier game without following his advice!) He then went on to create the single most useful 4e tool ever created (try it, you'll never look back). His monster design is top notch and over the years his advice on how to make your 4e games run better has been rock solid. Remember, most of what he writes is to help DM's run their games better and his point of view on the game is quite different from that of char op.
While I do disagree with his stance on running Essentials only games (I run a table where Pre-E and E-classes are welcome), I'm going to stand up for Mike Shea and say he has been a major supporter of 4e over the years and to claim he is anti-4e is flat out wrong.
Want to know more about the history of D&D, especially how to play older editions of the game? Check out Crazy Monkey's "Tour through the editions":
http://community.wizards.com/crazymonkey/go/forum/view/133793/225799/Asylum_Play-by-Post
The current edition is BECMI, the most popular form of Basic D&D and the adventure is the classic Red Box quest to kill Bargle the evil magic user. Check it out, learn about the games roots, and enjoy the story as it unfolds.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 30, 2012 - 10:48AM
#15
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Date Joined:
Nov 30, 2010
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i used my words wrong, i was refering to AEDU 4e...derp english...
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6 months ago ::
Nov 30, 2012 - 11:41AM
#16
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2004
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Never once does he in any way advise that you should use DDI to make a preessentials PC
I did not say he did. I said he didn't tell people not to use the old classes (as you and others in this thread claimed).
I also asked if there was other stuff you disagreed with other than this (i.e. to warrant your statement of "The author of the article gives terrible advice overall")?
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6 months ago ::
Dec 03, 2012 - 1:05PM
#17
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Essentials is really not that balanced and a lot of the classes are flat out poorly designed. While there are a few evenly and well built classes like the knight and slayer a lot of the essentials stuff is underpowered even when just compared to other essentials classes. You can make a fairly strong PC out of almost all the pressentials classes without hybridding, excepting the assassin. That is true a lot less with essentials classes.
The sentinel is the worst of the leader builds even when just compared to the warpriest and skald. An ogmha warpriest in particular will blow it out of the water in effectiveness in late paragon even if you limit yourself to only essentials materials, but its not even that close before then. Any of the preessentials leaders is better.
Cavalier is the worst defender, even when just compared to the Knight. The preessentials defenders are all a lot better.
The binder is the worst controller. The mage is a lot better, as are the preessentials controllers. Regular Warlocks and even the lowly seeker is a little better at this point. Witches, bladesingers, and sha'ir are all weaker than the Mage and Arcanist.
Vampire and blackguard are fairly weak strikers. Again several of the essentials ones like the slayer and thief are better and almost all the preessentials ones are a lot better excepting the assassin.
If all you care about is min/maxing and you're going to do that in comparison to the pre-Essentials classes then most of what you're saying is probably true, but so what?
I mean, ideally, every class would be exactly equal. OTOH all the 4e classes you've mentioned, and all the others that might fall under the rubrik of Essentials classes (except the Binder, that one you can rag on all you want) all work fine. Sure, you can make up some other example class in many cases that is 'better', but guess what? The cavalier is a perfectly viable defender. The sentinel is a perfectly viable leader too. The vampire is cool and will do fine as a striker for 99% of all players. I've seen most of these classes in action, and they work well, they're flavorful and they play fine.
I'm not saying I think Mike Shea's phobia for pre-Essentials 4e is at all sensible, but recommending the DMK, MV, and HotF* books is a good solid recommendation that will serve most purchasers well. I'll stink-eye the "oh maybe you should try the PF BG" and the "whatever you do stay away from pre-Essentials 4e" but OTOH most people that have played with Essentials for a while are going to decide for themselves what other books to get...
That is not dead which may eternal lie
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6 months ago ::
Dec 03, 2012 - 1:10PM
#18
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Never once does he in any way advise that you should use DDI to make a preessentials PC
I did not say he did. I said he didn't tell people not to use the old classes (as you and others in this thread claimed).
I also asked if there was other stuff you disagreed with other than this (i.e. to warrant your statement of "The author of the article gives terrible advice overall")?
I think the gist of his advice was that pre-Essentials 4e is a bugaboo you should just not waste your time on. He doesn't LITERALLY say not to ever play it, but he does tell you not to buy it. I think it is pretty safe to assume that in Mike Shea's mind Essentials is the only 4e you will ever need or want.
That is not dead which may eternal lie
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6 months ago ::
Dec 03, 2012 - 1:54PM
#19
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2004
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I think the gist of his advice was that pre-Essentials 4e is a bugaboo you should just not waste your time on. He doesn't LITERALLY say not to ever play it, but he does tell you not to buy it. I think it is pretty safe to assume that in Mike Shea's mind Essentials is the only 4e you will ever need or want.
Ah. Fair enough (corroborated here). I can understand taking issue with that part.
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6 months ago ::
Dec 03, 2012 - 2:05PM
#20
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I think the gist of his advice was that pre-Essentials 4e is a bugaboo you should just not waste your time on. He doesn't LITERALLY say not to ever play it, but he does tell you not to buy it. I think it is pretty safe to assume that in Mike Shea's mind Essentials is the only 4e you will ever need or want.
Ah. Fair enough (corroborated here). I can understand taking issue with that part.
Yeah, personally I have fundamental disagreements with Mike Shea's opinions on Essentials. I personally neither think the problems he cites are a big deal, or as serious as he thinks, nor do I see that Essentials in any way shape or form fixed them.
That is not dead which may eternal lie
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