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Dec 1, 2012 -- 11:57AM, MarkB wrote:

Nov 26, 2012 -- 12:19PM, RisingZan wrote:

Or a more blatent example - if you are petrified (no save/no duration) and then die, you don't automatically become fleshy again.

What about if it does have a "save ends" duration? Has it ever been defined whether a dead character can continue to make saving throws?

Nothing says you don't?

Dec 2, 2012 -- 7:18AM, Plaguescarred wrote:

If a creature is destroyed, it has no turns so it cant make saves at the end of it though.. 

RC 198 The Structure of a Turn: Of course, If a creature is destroyed, it has no turns!

Find me an equivalence that says "destroyed" is synonymous with "dead" - and then justify that rule in the face of things like the epic powers that are usable while dead and raise you and put you back in the turn order without re-rolling init, and that might be a good hard rule.

As is, that's much closer to a soft "why would you bother, there is nothing that can matter?" suggestion, like how if you have +10 to a saving throw your die roll is irrelevant and thus there's no point to bothering to drop that D20 - but if there was something that happened when someone "rolls a save", it would still trigger on you.

Anyway.  The situation of something being dead and yet still having a relevant Save Ends effect on it is so rare that it's really easy to handle case-by-case.  And since "Save Ends" is and has always been nothing more than a timing mechanic to tell how long powers last, it's easy enough to say "Well, that effect still ends when the dice say it should, even if the person who was supposed to roll those dice is gone"

Dec 2, 2012 -- 9:32AM, Plaguescarred wrote:

Going to the dictionary for game terms is a non-starter.

You kidding right ? Something like 97% of the words used in the game are only found in the dictionary. 

A game term is a term defined in the game system. For terms not defined in the game system you must rely on dictionary if you want to have any semblant of functionality...

Are you saying reducing an object, a summoned creature or a familiar to 0 hit points or using Dispel Magic on a Conjuration (just to name a few exemples out of many) has no effect because destroyed is not explicitly defined in the rules ?


RC 176 Object Defense and Hit Points: An object reduced to 0 hit points is destroyed or otherwise rendered useless

RC 120 Hit Points: The summoned creature’s maximum hit points equal the summoner’s bloodied value. When the summoned creature drops to 0 hit points, it is destroyed, and the summoner loses a healing surge.

HoTF 131 Hit Points and Dying: Your familiar has 1 hit point, but a missed attack never damages it. If your familiar drops to 0 hit points, it is destroyed. 

PHB 162 Dispel Magic: The conjuration or zone is destroyed.

Dec 2, 2012 -- 9:22AM, LordOfWeasels wrote:

See, THAT I have no argument with.  And I am happy to say "there is a timing element that still matters even though the creature doing the ticking is dead, so it keeps ticking on his turn even though his turn is otherwise irrelevant."

 
Me too, but all i am saying it that the rules say a destroyed creature has no turns, not that it has a turn but cant take it or that its irrevelant. 

In practice, when creatures are destroyed, most people generally knock them off the initiative anyway...