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Switch to Forum Live View Do you expect your character to be at their full potential at lvl 1?
7 months ago  ::  Nov 22, 2012 - 1:32PM #1
Staccat0
Date Joined: Jun 15, 2012
Posts: 334
Since this is a playtest, and it involves geeks on the internet, there is bound to be complaints. In the end, it will hopefully make D&D Next better.

One thing I seem to observe though, and I could be wrong, is that some people SEEM to want to be pretty tough and capable at lvl1. They want to be the hero they have envisioned. I always envision lvl 1 characters as more capable than the average dude, but still weak and undefined in a dangerous and huge world.

We see a lot of complaints about what a class has or doesn't have. Part of this is valid, other parts probably silly nostalgia tied to a specific class or character from your past. That's fine, but how much of this has to happen at the start?

Is your rogue a master lock picker at level 1? Does your wizard always have the right spell for the situation at level 1? Can your fighter withstand the brunt of a dragon's breath?

My personal taste, is to have players be a little weaker than they currently start, but I know thats just taste, and easily house ruled with some sort of level 0 option. Still I can't help but wonder how alone I am?  I see my rogue being a "good" lockpick at level 1, but not truly great until later. I see my Wizard being truly excited on the day that he gets through the day without having to resort to spamming some crappy at-will. Maybe it's less fun though?

So an example, would you be cool with not picking a specialty until level 2 or even 3?
Do you need your character to be the hero you envision from the start, or is that goal (even a short-term one) to work toward?

Just curious. 
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7 months ago  ::  Nov 22, 2012 - 1:34PM #2
kadim
Date Joined: Jun 21, 2012
Posts: 2,766

My short answer is no I don't.


I expect a lvl 1 character to have all the components of their niche, but I don't expect all of them to be at their full potential. In fact, I'm disappointed when they are.

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7 months ago  ::  Nov 22, 2012 - 1:35PM #3
EnglishLanguage
Date Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 5,290
Full potential:No

Be able to perform in their archtype from level 1:Yes

By the seocnd part I mean I don't want to have to wait 4-5 levels to finally get the class feature that lets me function as my class.
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7 months ago  ::  Nov 22, 2012 - 1:36PM #4
Salla
Date Joined: Apr 3, 2003
Posts: 23,557

Nov 22, 2012 -- 1:35PM, EnglishLanguage wrote:

Full potential:No

Be able to perform in their archtype from level 1:Yes




This.

I think of a first level character as, well, a badass.  A normal guy doesn't look at him and think 'he's pretty good', a normal guy looks at a PC and thinks 'DAMN'.

Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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7 months ago  ::  Nov 22, 2012 - 1:47PM #5
Staccat0
Date Joined: Jun 15, 2012
Posts: 334

Nov 22, 2012 -- 1:36PM, Salla wrote:

Nov 22, 2012 -- 1:35PM, EnglishLanguage wrote:

Full potential:No

Be able to perform in their archtype from level 1:Yes




This.

I think of a first level character as, well, a badass.  A normal guy doesn't look at him and think 'he's pretty good', a normal guy looks at a PC and thinks 'DAMN'.



I always feel like it's more fun when that's something earned. To me, lv 1 guys are uncommon and exceptional, but not that much more uncommon than level 3 and 4 enemies and npcs. It's not until after maybe level 5 that we're really getting into the territory of the sort of dude you've never seen before.

So for example, a thief with a focus on sleight of hand who can also boost is with an ED is an order of magnitude better at it that seems like we're already in fantastical skill levles compared to your average joe. Any growth from there just feels like math to me.

Just getting +5 was impressive enough to me. Or just having the ED. Having both makes me feel like he skipped  a level. Same with a Rogue whose initiative is completely bonkers with bonuses to start.

I'm just trying to gauge what exactly  it all means.

A few guidelines for using the internet:
1. Mentally add "In my opinion" to the end of basically anything someone else says. Of course it's their opinion, they don't need to let you know. You're pretty smart.
2. Assume everyone means everything in the best manner they could mean it. Save yourself some stress and give people the benefit of the doubt. We'll all be happier if we type less emoticons.
3. Don't try to read people's minds. Sometimes people mean exactly what they say. You probably don't know them any better than they know themselves.
4. Let grammar slide. If you understood what they meant, you're good. It's better for your health.
5. Breath. It's just a dumb game.
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7 months ago  ::  Nov 22, 2012 - 2:02PM #6
Orzel
Date Joined: Aug 22, 2007
Posts: 3,369
At leel 1, a PC is "good" at what ever their class and race is good at. "Expert" is possible but it should require extreme specialization.
Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds.

Constitution Based Class for Next!
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7 months ago  ::  Nov 22, 2012 - 2:11PM #7
MeCorva
Date Joined: Jun 6, 2008
Posts: 774
Staccat - many people like starting at "just fell off a turnip truck".  Many people also like starting as a adventurer - who doesn't know his place in the world yet, but does have combat experience.
I don't think either are wrong.  I think historically, classes weren't designed for interesting choices, so early levels can feel boring to those who like combat choices.  So, some one who likes fighters having ED may not relish playin a level 0 fighter with no ED or manouvers.     It's easy enough to make a level 0 though, so there's no reason Wotc shouldn't release it.

For me though - I like my character to be competent and interesting.  If that can be accomplished by a level -2, fine.  If that can only be accomplished as a level 10, fine.
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7 months ago  ::  Nov 22, 2012 - 9:00PM #8
Lesp
Date Joined: May 5, 2009
Posts: 2,411
What I would want the general game assumption to be is that a character is qualitatively a member of their class from level 1, but quantitatively a very weak one. An example of doing this right (even if the design has other issues) is the 3.5 fighter. The 3.5 fighter is, from level 1, a fighter. He has a (small) attack bonus and an extra capability related to combat, plus the ability to use all of the weapons and armor. He's clearly a full fighter, just a weak one. The most prominant example of messing this up is the 3.5 druid. Whether or not you think that sahapeshifting should be one of the druid's most defining abilities, it was one in 3.5 -- but it wasn't something you got until well into your career as a druid. When combined with how spellcasting scales in 3.5, the end result is that a level ten druid wasn't remotely identifiable as being a member of the same class as a level 1 druid. If a level 10 druid is a dire-tiger-shifting dire-tiger-summoning dire-tiger-commanding badass calling down the wrath of nature on their foes, a level one druid should have a limited-but-relevant ability to turn into a bobcat, a bobcat companion that's barely more than an ordinary bobcat, and the ability to call on the forces of nature to aid in combat in limited ways. It shouldn't be a dude with the bobcat, but other than that just a sling and an alignment restriction.

It's fine for classes to evolve as they level up, and in some cases that's essentially inevitable. They should just not, where, possible, transform significantly. A level one elephant should be a baby elephant, not an elephant with two of its legs and its trunk lopped off.

Note that this is not the same desire at all as the desire to play superman at level 1. It's the desire to play a scaled-down version of superman at level 1 - one scaled down enough to be a level 1 character.

I also recognize that there's some cost associated with this. Part of managing the game's complexity is introducing new options and systems to a player not all at once. Druids in 3.5 have just an absurd amount going on - they're prepared spellcasters who prep from their entire spell list (and can then spontaneously convert to a broad-utility spell), they have an animal companion to deal with, and their spells/day is shrimpy enough that a druid player has to understand how physical combat mechanics work fairly well. That's a ton for a new player. It's totally understandable that a designer would look at that and decide that a uses/day mechanic that utilizes one of the more complicated and confusing game subsystems in the whole edition and exposes a bunch of DM content to the players is the last thing that such an already complex character needs to have dropped on them at level 1. There's always going to be a tradeoff of sorts between concept pacing (how fast you introduce new concepts to players) and class realiztion pacing (how long it takes before the class actually is what it is instead of a trunkless elephant.) Carefully pacing the rate at which you expose players to new mechanics is something that's taken for granted as something you should care about in electronic game design, and I hope that it's something that D&D designers think about as well. It's very, very difficult for a lot of people to get into the head of a new player, especially one that's taking a little longer than average to pick up on how the game works, but pacing of new mechanics is at least somewhat important.
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer.

Swanmay Syndrome: Despite the percentages given in the Monster Manual, in reality 100% of groups of swans contain a Swanmay, because otherwise the DM would not have put any swans in the game.
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7 months ago  ::  Nov 22, 2012 - 9:18PM #9
Diffan
Date Joined: Sep 19, 2006
Posts: 3,452
Lesp pretty much summed up what I was thinking as well.

I use 4E examples because, to me, they do a great job at what Lesp is talking about. For example, I have a 1st level Human Were-bear Berserker. When he goes "berserk" he transforms into a Bear-Man hybrid (it's all fluff though). I facilitate this with is Theme power to bite a target with the maw of a bear. It's hard to maintain a level of composure while in a hybrid form so he usually just looks intimidating (no mechanical beneftis had, BTW) and fights with more ferocity and anger. This character isn't really any more powerful than a run of the mill 1st level Elven Ranger or a 1st level Dwarf Fighter or a 1st level Halfing Rogue. It's exoitic, sure, but balanced well.

That's what I'd like to see. If I want to play a Bear-Warrior, I should be able to do so from 1st level and grow into that archtype as I gain "power". To me, it's not about numbers and hard-coded better mechanics than standard options, it's about flavor and interesting elements that fuel a creative mind. If I can play a Were-Bear berserker or a Noble human vampire or a Drow Swordsman at 1st level and be on-par with traditional choices as far as balance and mechanics go, then I'd be extreamly happy.     
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7 months ago  ::  Nov 23, 2012 - 12:47AM #10
Saelorn
Date Joined: May 27, 2012
Posts: 3,122

Nov 22, 2012 -- 1:35PM, EnglishLanguage wrote:

Full potential:No

Be able to perform in their archtype from level 1:Yes


Agreed.  Although I fall closer to the turnip-approach than many, the level 1 character still needs to be able to perform the same role as it will perform at level 5 or 15.  

Particularly egregious failures in 3.5 include the druid (as mentioned), the paladin (who lacks healing of any sort until level 2), the savant (a sort of generalist that crams 7 levels of fighter/rogue/wizard/cleric into 20 levels, but doesn't gain arcane spells until level 5 or divine spells until level 10), and the dragon shaman (a marshal/dragonfire adept/paladin who was just an aura until picking up an at-will breath weapon at level 4, and then healing of any sort at level 6).  Failures in 3.5 or 4E include any sort of multi-class character concept.

Even with my cantrips and backstab, though, I don't expect my level 1 fighter/mage/thief to survive more than a single hit, but neither would I expect the same of my foes.  (I would also expect the rules to make unconsciousness survivable, especially at low levels, but that's tangential to the matter at hand.)



The metagame is not the game.
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