Community

Hi, this is Rodrigo

In this post we’re going to take a look at classes in detail

Let’s start to speak about what I expect from the classes in general:

First, I would like classes to be balanced more in and out of combat. A not balanced system will lead to a disruption of the game, because somebody is “the king of the fight” and somebody else is “the only one speaking and acting  while not in combat”, boring  the rest of the players. Second and last I don’t expect a bunch of classes with many customization possibilities, but a lot of classes with different mechanics and a few possibilities to customize. For instance, what’s the deal of having a duelist warrior or a rogue? They’re pretty similar  leather finesse dmg dealers (warrior better in combat, rogue out of combat, sick) . Go for a good barbarian, or whatever else is different :D

Also, for the corrections I’m going to list, there will be the need for a categorization of maneuvers into offensive/defensive/mobility

Let’s speak about what I expect from the single classes (stating that I’m not a “insert random class here” player, I love playing all classes equally as long as they are equilibrated, no matter what’s the role)

Warrior: I would love warrior to be a supportive tank, dealing good amount of damage (but not excessive) while soaking up damage from opponents and gain their aggro (obliging them to attack him, limiting their movements etc). I really love it’s actual setup, best of all the shield stuffs and the possibility to do defensive maneuvers. What I absolutely don’t like is the fact that his main damage maneuver “deadly strike” is a better version of sneak attack (I’ll speak about an improvement in the sneak attack ability in the rogue section). Looking at average damage progression, I would like to point out that it’s not really appealing, as if you spend dices to do maneuvers your output damage sinks. Also, its mobility is a bit too high if he wears heavy armor.

Possible solutions:. A possible progression of the average  damage and expertise dice is provided in table 1 . Substitute deadly strike at lvl 1 with parry, and insert deadly strike at lvl 2. Also, insert  free expertise dices useable only for movement/defensive maneuvers at lvl1-5-10 (add  cap to maneuvers, parry and protect in particular,  if these dices results in numbers too high). As the mobility is something depending on armor, you should add dexterity requisite on warrior’s mobility maneuvers (a heavy armor warrior shouldn’t be mobile).

Maneuver suggestion:

Taunt (or similar name, provoke or whatever) => for each expertise die you spend roll it up. You can make charisma contests on up to that result number of creatures that can see you, and adding that result to each of your check. Every creature failing the charisma contest against you is obliged to attack you until the beginning of your next turn (aoe effect must include you).

Tactical lock (find a better name :D)=> as any creature tries to leave a square in your reach, you may spend an expertise die. You make a melee attack against that creature adding that result to the attack roll. If you hit, the creature falls prone and its movement ends immediately (it doesn’t leave the square and can’t move further). The creature can do any other available action.

Rogue: I totally disagree with the actual version of the rogue. I would love it as a single target cooperative damage dealer (like it was in 3.5) rewarding players that can use brain to gain a good position (and deal with the risk of being away from healer’s touch) with a STRONG burst of single target damage with a proper sneak attack skill (or a good burst if you just want to stay near mother priest). Its mobility has to aid him to reach the position he need. Also, that big pool of abilities is too much, disrupting the game. Rogue should not be the only one (or mostly) speaking and doing 100 different type of stuffs. The parry maneuver gives him damage mitigation he shouldn’t have (or not that big at all).

Possible solutions: A possible progression of the average  damage and expertise dice is provided in table 1. Revamp sneak attack (see below) and give it at lvl1 for all rogues. Insert a maneuver that helps the rogue getting advantage (as he has lower attack bonus then the warrior, also advantage should be the trigger for sneak attack) like Feint (see below). Increase it’s mobility a bit, giving it the possibility to move into the opponents taking low risks (like it was in 3.5, cd x on acrobat skill to move half speed without provoking opportunity attack). Decrease its damage mitigation removing parry. REMOVE THE 100 BONUS SKILLS, no class should be able to do 100 different skills (this is really important, balance classes both in and out of combat)

Maneuver suggestion:

Sneak attack => To use sneak attack you must have combat advantage. Whenever you hit with an attack you may spend any number of expertise dices. For each expertise dice you spend, roll twice that dice and add the result to the damage roll.

Feint => Before making a melee attack you may spend any number of expertise dices. Roll that dices, then you can start a bluff contest (against wisdom or sense motive) with the opponent you wish to attack, adding the result to your check. If you win the contest you gain combat advantage against that opponent until the end of your current turn.

Rule suggestion:

Flanking => same mechanic as 3.5 but with a little change. As long as two allies are at the two opposite sides of an opponent’s square (like it was in 3.5) one of them has combat advantage against that opponent each turn. The first attacking and flanking player decides if he gets the advantage, then if he doesn’t the second player may decide (when it is his turn and if he still can get the flanking position) and so on. No more then one player per turn can get this bonus on the same opponent.

Cleric: The cleric is the most correct class overall. Overall strong support, overall good mitigation (the armor, heals and such), overall 0 mobility and overall good stuff out of combat, and that’s exactly what I expect from it (it’s the class I played more). The damage is just somehow wrong. The cleric shouldn’t be the top single target dps, neither the top aoe dps (in this case he has only one aoe at 5^th spell lvl, but it is the biggest in terms of numbers). It should only be corrected in terms of spell dmg, making the single target one less appealing (why should I heal and support while I can touch and oneshot somebody) and inserting some more good (but not best) aoe while nerfing the 5^th lvl one.

Possible solutions: A possible progression of the average  spell damage is provided in table 1. Correcting the spell damage is pretty easy, just adjust the dices and the +x damage to fill up the average numbers you want to have. You can also insert many more spells dealing less average damage but with side effects, like slow/intoxicated/charmed etc, and some more situational spells for the “out of combat”.

Wizard: The wizard should be a good dps and support class, dealing top aoe damage and close to top single target damage. It’s not that far away from expectations, but with some totally wrong damage calculation. First of all, why should the top damage single target spell (at the moment), with an average damage of 50, be a WITHOUT HIT EFFECT? “Hey, I’m cool, I deal 50 damage as I just want it. You may deal 33 with 2 melee attack or 45 with a touch, but not 50 without all of that”. Ofc I’m speaking about magic missile, nerf that. Also, the aoe are random crap, with totally not appealing values and effects. I’d rather use a 4^th lvl ice storm then a 5^th lvl cloudkill or cone of cold, is that normal to you? It’s also too big (and unrealistic) that you can exclude some targets from your aoe damage as you wish, as aoe damage itself should be something that rewards you with big damage if you have the brain (and the space) to place it in a smart way (and you shouldn’t be allowed to do aoe everytime, otherwise bye bye single target spells). Last, its health is too big.

Possible solutions: A possible progression of the average  spell damage is provided in table 1. Correcting the spell damage is pretty easy, just adjust the dices and the +x damage to fill up the average numbers you want to have. You can also insert many more spells dealing less average damage but with side effects, like slow/intoxicated/charmed etc, and some more situational spells for the “out of combat”. Also, take out a d4 from magic missile, leaving it at 7,5 average dmg xlvl, then insert a single target spell for each spell lvl that deals more dmg but with a ranged attack. Absolutely remove spell tactician, as it’s too big (even if aoe numbers are way too low) and brainless “I cast the spell in the middle of the fight, boom everyone but not my mates”. Aoe should be situational, you need brain and space to place it correctly. Reduce health dice to d4, as it always was (a mage shall consider how to deal his big damage without taking aggro, if he brainlessly shot at things it’s reasonable he gets aggro and die istantly).

Suggestion: A possible wizard customization may be the “dominator”, I would play something dealing 0 damage but controlling opponents etc, consider this :D

TABLE 1

Warrior	Dwarf	Human	suggested progression	suggested dice (see analysis part 2)			Mage	suggested progression*
1	11,00	11,00	8,50	(extra dice for mobiliy/defensive maneuvers)		lvl 1-2	6,5s 8,5s 10s 3,5a 7a	7,5s/10s** 10a
2	12,00	12,00	11,00	1d4		lvl 3-4	20d 20s 10,5a 27s	15s/20s** 15a
3	12,00	12,00	13,50	2d4		lvl 5-6	30s 11a 14a 17,5a 21a	22,5s/30s** 20a
4	15,50	15,50	15,50	2d6		lvl 7-8	40s 17,5a 9 o 18a	30s/40s** 25a
5	15,50	15,50	24,00	2d6 + extra attack (+another extra dice)		lvl9-10	50s 14a 16,5a 21a	37,5s/50s** 30a
6	24,00	24,00	24,00	2d6 + extra attack			Cleric	suggested progression*
7	24,00	24,00	27,50	3d6 + extra attack		lvl 1-2	8,5s 13,5s	10s  5a
8	28,00	28,00	29,50	3d6 + extra attack		lvl 3-4	22,5s 4,5x10s	20s
9	28,00	28,00	29,50	3d6 + extra attack		lvl 5-6	36s	30s  15a
10	35,50	35,50	32,50	3d8 + extra attack (+another extra dice)		lvl 7-8	45s	40s
Rogue	Halfling	Human (2)	Elf	suggested progression	suggested dice (see analysis part 2)	lvl9-10	28a	50s  25a
1	10,00	11,00	11,00	13,5 o 8,5+advantage	1d4		a=aoe	*also add some lower-dmg spell doing some effect like slowed/intoxicated etc
2	11,00	12,00	12,00	13,5 o 8,5+advantage	1d4		s=single target
3	11,00	12,00	12,00	18,5 o 13,5+advantage	2d4		d=divided
4	15,50	15,50	16,50	23,5 o 16+advantage	2d6			**the first "s" is the magic missile damage, the second is the average damage of another spell with a ranged attack
5	15,50	15,50	16,50	30,5 o 23+advantage	3d6	Average dice result (for beginners)
6	15,50	15,50	16,50	30,5 o 23+advantage	3d6	d4	2,50
7	15,50	15,50	16,50	37,5 o 30,5+advantage	4d6	d6	3,50
8	17,50	18,50	18,50	37,5 o 30,5+advantage	4d6	d8	4,50
9	17,50	18,50	18,50	45,5 o 36,5+advantage	4d8	d10	5,50
10	25,00	26,00	26,00	53,5 o 42,5+advantage	4d10	d12	6,50

 

Have to agree with everything listed above the charts.  I'd have to do some more studying of the numbers before I agree with the chart(haven't looked at thoroughly yet).  Cone of Cold definately needs help.  It either needs more damange, an added effect such as slow, or both.  I always thought that it was odd too that the better damage spells were of a lower level.  Yeah, magic missile is all over the place and kind of broken.  Polymorph issues are more significant(in my eyes) right now...

I'm taking a good look at monks too, and what immediately comes at eye is that


flurry of blows is a nerfed sneak attack (1 ally near a monster is easy to get, not 2-3-4 attack rolls). Also (and that's funny) why should i punch foes while i can use a quarterstaff (dealing 1d8 instead of d6) AND GET DEADLY STRIKE MANEUVER (it's in monk's maneuver list) that, as we all know, it's the best dmg maneuver around.  


Going to make a study about that and post it, with some possible solutions  

Nov 23, 2012 -- 8:24AM, Redda wrote:

I'm taking a good look at monks too, and what immediately comes at eye is that


flurry of blows is a nerfed sneak attack (1 ally near a monster is easy to get, not 2-3-4 attack rolls). Also (and that's funny) why should i punch foes while i can use a quarterstaff (dealing 1d8 instead of d6) AND GET DEADLY STRIKE MANEUVER (it's in monk's maneuver list) that, as we all know, it's the best dmg maneuver around.  


Going to make a study about that and post it, with some possible solutions  

Flurry of Blows is not a nerfed sneak attack, it works nothing like sneak attack, it is mechanically different in many ways. No requirement except making an unarmed attack and multiple attacks instead of increased damage to a single attack being the biggest differences.

Now while it may be relatively easy for the rogue to work with a teammate and set-up his sneak attack if he ends up with no allies nearby sneak attack is very unlikely. The Monk on the other hand can use his ability anytime he makes an unarmed attack. This gives them more choices on who to attack.

As for why I would use Flurry instead of a quarterstaff with deadly strike? Most monk abilities that have a requirment require the monk to be unarmed. Stunning Strike is a good example, Deflect missle requires a hand free so it cannot be used with a staff, Deadly Strike can be used with an unarmed attack so if I had othe abilities I wanted access to I would probably stay unarmed. Also, while the damage using quarterstaff  and Deadly strike might be higher (the more attack rolls you make the higher the crit chance so FLurry has that going for it) it is a single attack. If you miss with your quarterstaff that is it, no more attacks. FLurry allows for multiple attacks, so if one misses the others might hit. I'd rather deal some damage than none. In addition, these extra attacks do not need to be made against the same target, some people even claim you can move in-between these attacks. This means Flurry allows you to hit multiple targets instead of one. It is completely possible for a flurry of blows to take down 4 targets, deadly strike can only take down one.

I won't argue flurry is better than deadly strike. For single target damage deadly strike is cleary superior right now, except for the higher crit chance, but you can also miss. I'd say if I hit with my first attack, and I knew I simple wanted to deal as much damage to this single target, I would use deadly strike before flurry. If I had multiple targets though, flurry is the way to go

Cleave does quite the same part of the aoe that flurry does (you just don't move)


For what concerns the rest, flurry is not mathematically better, because it just splits the total dmg, so more average (not really, because missing the first hit is not like missing the flurry) and less hit/miss peaks. Also consider that if you use flurry your dices are gone, while if you miss deadly strike/sneak attack you don't expend them and use for something else (like parry for example). The crit on flurry is 6, you add no bonus to the roll, not a big deal.


So no, for the moment the monk is not that appealing (for what are my standards, i always speak about opinions)