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Switch to Forum Live View Why are my melee encounters lasting so long?
6 months ago  ::  Nov 21, 2012 - 12:42PM #1
StevenJones
Date Joined: Nov 2, 2006
Posts: 172
Melee encounters for my group have been a grind since mid-heroic tier. On average, one "moderate" level melee encounter takes at least 3 hours; "difficult" encounters can easily take the entire 4-5 hour session. The problem is, melee, while a great pillar of the game, becomes painfully boring after a handful of rounds. 

If any of you frequent forum fliers are having deja vu, it might be because I've posed this question to y'all before. I took/implemented the following suggestions from the last time I inquired, but am still having the same old problem:

1. Half enemy HP and double enemy damage. This worked for a while but isn't "scaleable" at paragon level. Actually, the math totally falls apart around 9th or 10th level. At paragon level it's a complete disaster.

2. Have enemies retreat or surrender when the battle's end is predictable. This works great for intelligent monsters or NPCs -- people who see the value in negotiation -- but isn't realistic for the other half of the monsters. When I give in and wave the wand with the latter category of monsters/NPCs, it's proven to be dissatisfying for everyone at the table. 

3. Cut the party in half. The party used to have 8 players. Based on comments from my previous thread by DMs with more 4e experience with me, I brought in another player and split the group in 2, each with 4-5 PCs. This has worked well, but now that we're mid-paragon tier and each player has an inch-high stack of powers to choose from, time spent grinding through melee encounters has revved back up.  

Any other pointers? What am I doing wrong here?

Thanks in advance!
Steven
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6 months ago  ::  Nov 21, 2012 - 12:57PM #2
Centauri
Date Joined: Jul 21, 2004
Posts: 9,681
Make fights about more than just survival. Make them about something that the players and monsters can only affect the outcome of for X rounds, where X is the number of rounds you're interested in running at that point. After that, there's no point in playing out the rest of the battle and it should be handwaved.

The classic example is a ritual. The PCs have X rounds to prevent the ritual from happening, which they can do by killing participants, making skill checks, or whatever else. After X rounds, they've either stopped it, or it has succeeded, or something else has changed. They can take the out-of-game time to kill everything in the room, if they want, but there'd be no real point to it, so they might be more amenable to handwaving the ending. The enemies might even plausibly surrender. What do they care? They succeeded.

You're not required to use enemies that won't run away, or to make their only function to kill the PCs. Use them to buy time for the enemy, or to perform some menial but dangerous action. 10 skeletons walk toward 10 widely spaced piles of explosives, each holding a lighted torch. They're 3 rounds away. What does the party do?

The linchpin for all of this is to have interesting ways for the players to fail. The ritual is completed, which complicates things, but doesn't immediately kill the players. They just now have to deal with this new complication.

If the only way for a fight to be won (and then effectively end) is for one side's HP to be taken to zero, then start by changing that assumption.
[N]o difference is less easily overcome than the difference of opinion about semi-abstract questions. - L. Tolstoy
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6 months ago  ::  Nov 21, 2012 - 1:07PM #3
waxwingslain
Date Joined: Sep 25, 2011
Posts: 315
I have had similar problems to what you describe. I think there's a couple of causes and, unfortunately, no magic-bullet solution.

First, 8 players is way too much for a 4E party. You were right to cut the group in half. I find that my 5-player group is slower in combat than I would like, and have found the sessions with 4 or even 3 players seeming to move much more quickly.

A major issue that slows down my group is that we are all in our 30s and do not have the same kind of time/attention to devote to D&D as we might have when we were 16 or 20. That means that none of the players spend time between sessions poring over rulebooks or their character sheets, and therefore although everyone knows the rules pretty well at this point (we've played probably 25 sessions over the past year+) nobody except for me really has immediately and smooth facility with them, or even with their own characters/powers (as we've been advancing at a pretty good clip--probably a level, with its concomitant powers and pluses increases, every 3 or 4 sessions). So every turn there's several seconds or more of puzzling-out that has to occur, and it really adds up.

I don't want it to sound like my players are uninterested--far from it, they go way out of their way to attend the sessions and are really invested in the story and their characters. And I can't--won't--be a harsh disciplinarian (MAKE YOUR MOVE IN THIRTY SECONDS OR YOU LOSE YOUR TURN!) to fellow adults.

We have recently been trying a more rapid combat that basically requires me (the DM) to be a little more involved in hurrying them along and getting them ready for their turn, rather than just sitting there while they struggle. I announce who is "on deck" in the initiative order so they can get their move ready. Also--and this takes the most work--I keep an updated copy of each character's sheet in front of me during the combat and know exactly what all their powers/options are, so I can offer suggestions. I don't mean "how about using your daily against this guy??" but rather, as I see them trying to count out ranges and puzzle out flanking and such, I can immediately help with "yeah, from there you'll be at +9 to hit with that power you just mentioned" or "if you shoot your bow from there you'll draw an opp attack" instead of having them ponder through it.

I would like faster combat, though. I almost wish 5E combat was initiativeless, with everybody's action occurring simultaneously. It would require a little more hustling/bookkeeping on the DM's part, but things would be much quicker and there wouldn't be much of that "well, I just went, so it's gonna be 8 minutes or more til my next turn, and I know what I'm doing, soooo iPhone!"
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6 months ago  ::  Nov 21, 2012 - 1:09PM #4
Matyr
Date Joined: Jun 19, 2004
Posts: 2,726
I would be interested to know a few things:

How many soldiers and leaders do the enemies have?

Soldiers have higher than average defenses and, especially in paragon, can slow down the paces by doing things like marking different people and inflicting status conditions that slow things down.  A large group of soldiers pulling your strikers apart can make the combat take a long time just by being what they are.  Soldiers are the defenders of the monster world and some of them are very effective at it.

Leaders, or leaderlike creatures that allow power recovery (when those powers can cripple) or heal can also extend the life of team monster by a lot.  Try to use those sparingly.

How high Op are these groups? How many rounds does a combat last?

A High Op party can maul through creatures like they are made of paper.  High Op strikers are doing over 1KPR, as are High Op leaders.  Taking a controller and a defender together to get 1 more KPR you have a team of players that are, on average, able to take out 4 monsters on the first round (1 leader, 1 defender, 2 strikers, 1 controller).

Then as you go down the list the combats take progressively longer.  There is nothing inherently wrong with not being High Op but there should be a certain amount of optimization going on, especially in paragon, to prevent the combats from devolving into at-will slugfests.

How long does a player's turn take?

When I ran a Battle Interactive the average player turn was between 45 seconds and one minute.  It had to be in order for them to get through a high-paragon BI in the time limit.  Home games have way more flexibility on how much time a game can take because it isn't as structured, but you want to make sure your players know what they will be doing when their turn comes around.  When I was running games with younger players (11-14 year olds) I would announce who was "on deck" and that player would be required to think about what they were going to do, pick up their attack dice in one hand and their damage die in the other hand.  This wasn't needed for a very long time before several of the players came up with their own way to figure out exactly what they wanted to do and were ready without prompting.

Also, for some players, a Cheat Sheet can be unbelievably helpful.  While yes it is simple to know your ATK bonus, CA is only an extra 2, charging is an extra 1, enemy being prone is +5 damage etc etc etc, having a Cheat Sheet to glance at and know exactly what they need to roll in a given situation can really speed things up.  Mental math starts to get a little crazy with +1s and +2s in paragon, not to mention AP turns.


How long do your monster turns take?

How simple are your monster turns and how long does it take you.  It should be understood that a DM should take no more than a minute to resolve minions, no more than 2 min to resolve standard actions and no more than 5 minutes for a solo.  Thats just the mechanics mind you, that isn't talking about how you are describing actions and what not (which you should totally do), but I'm trying to give you some benchmarks on timing for the mechanical side of the DM experience.

Are things like initiative clearly displayed at the table?

Initiative flags I have found are extremely helpful.  Making sure your players know when exactly their turn comes up can be helpful for planning, especially if you don't tell players when they are on deck or the player has a complicated turn coming up.  Status flags can also be helpful for when players do big, encounter alterning effects (like a War Chanter spends an action point and uses Mantle of Unity in the same turn).

Do your players know vaguely what they are hitting at?

I give my players a "Plus Yes" for every encounter.  That means I tell them in the first round what the highest defense is a the table for team monster so they know if they beat it they can assume a hit without asking me (rarely you will have to ask for their hit if the monster has a temporary bonus of some kind).  Less often my players ask for a "No" or what the lowest defense is at the table because that tends to be less useful.  That doesn't mean you have to tell what the defense is, or what creature has that, but it speeds up the parts where your striker is rolling 5 rolls and some of them are well beyond missing anything in the encounter.

Can your players take parts or all of their turns before it gets to them?

Everyone has a different opinion of this.  In situations like the BI it was basically required, at my home game some of my players take turns in advance some of them do not.  In one of my games most of the players take their turns in advance so they can concentrate on description of their action on their turn, but I completely understand some DMs not liking their players to do this.

How much distraction is there at your table? 

I've said before that Monty Python is as much of many DnD gaming groups as initiative can be, but if you want to go quickly you have to limit the amount of distractions at the table.  Are any of your players playing facebook games/on the phone / away from the table / cross-talking about non-game related stuff that is slowing down the pace of the game.  Some of this will happen, DnD is a social event, but some people might get frustrated if there is never any focus at all at the table.

Currently working on making a Dex based defender.  Check it out here
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running?  Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with?  Check out the Pregen thread here
If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here
Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing".  You can check that out here
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6 months ago  ::  Nov 21, 2012 - 4:22PM #5
Be3Al2
Date Joined: May 14, 2012
Posts: 140
I've never been a DM and I only play using MapTools. However, I have read a bunch on the forums and I've noted that combats can drag on for a long time. There are some things I would like to compare and contrast between the MapTools games and the post above this one. Hopefully it might help figuring out where the problem is.

Some things are automatic in MapTools. You just pick the power you want to use, tick boxes for CA, charge and similar, and then add the sum total of bonuses/penalites to hit and to damage (e.g. Prime Shot or Power bonus) and click a button. All dice rolls and all math is done by MapTools. In a similar fashion the initative list is automatic.

The drawback of this is technical issues (disconnected players, slow display of results etc).

So, what bogs down play for us? Mostly rules questions and primarly players not knowing what power to use or where to position. I've tried to prevent myself from being part of the last problem, but I've noted that often I have an excellent plan, but when it comes to my turn the monster I was going to hit is already dead or I need to do some healing instead or something similar so I need a brand new plan anyway. Still, having a time limit might help this kind of things along (especially for one player who sometimes ends up being indecisive about what power fits best from a RP perspective).

Summary/TL;DR:
Trouble shoot if it is the math/tracking initative/rolling all the relevant dice that is the problem, or if it is how long the players take to decide on action. Then pick the relevant advice from other posters.

Just my two coppers on "trouble shooting" 
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6 months ago  ::  Nov 21, 2012 - 6:57PM #6
Matyr
Date Joined: Jun 19, 2004
Posts: 2,726
The idea of having boxes you can check for Maptools is something that the Cheat Sheet does in real life games.  Basically gives you a grid of every basic scenario (ie, all the scenarios your character can give for themselves) to work with.  Its really helpful for system math.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender.  Check it out here
Spoiler: Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running?  Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with?  Check out the Pregen thread here
If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here
Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing".  You can check that out here
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6 months ago  ::  Nov 21, 2012 - 9:38PM #7
Malph
Date Joined: Aug 26, 2008
Posts: 280
Here is a good thread compiling ways to accelerate combat. Smile
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6 months ago  ::  Nov 22, 2012 - 1:15AM #8
Matyr
Date Joined: Jun 19, 2004
Posts: 2,726

Nov 21, 2012 -- 9:38PM, Malph wrote:

Here is a good thread compiling ways to accelerate combat. 




Helpful in general, but the question I think is why melee combats specifically are taking longer not all combats.

Currently working on making a Dex based defender.  Check it out here
Spoiler: Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running?  Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with?  Check out the Pregen thread here
If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here
Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing".  You can check that out here
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6 months ago  ::  Nov 22, 2012 - 1:29AM #9
Melcar
Date Joined: Nov 20, 2012
Posts: 13
Im running a low level game at the moment, with two 3 player groups. Its not uncommon for us  to have an "easy" encounter taking more than 1 hour. Its been lie this always, when theres no wizard or Sorcerer to hurl enemies with deadly blasts. I think the longest "melee" or non-epic spellcasting battle I've bee part of, took about 6 hour. We were a 4 man team agains a 4 man NPC team... in a tavern. Not much tavern left when we where done.
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6 months ago  ::  Nov 22, 2012 - 1:42AM #10
Madfox11
  • LFR Global Admin
Date Joined: Dec 2, 2005
Posts: 4,441

Nov 22, 2012 -- 1:15AM, Matyr wrote:

Nov 21, 2012 -- 9:38PM, Malph wrote:

Here is a good thread compiling ways to accelerate combat. 




Helpful in general, but the question I think is why melee combats specifically are taking longer not all combats.


Huh? What do you mean? How do your typical fights look like? D&D fights are in general a mix of ranged, melee and magic with melee in general dominating because monsters and PCs tend to favor it. If you have a specific problem with melee, all I can think off is that your PCs are ill-suited to deal with melee because ranged PCs dominate the table. In that case, they are less effective when forced into melee, and also have to spend more time manouvering around to use their effective attacks. If that is the cause, you are better off making melee fights easier and/or less common.

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