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7 months ago ::
Nov 21, 2012 - 11:21AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2012
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Honestly guys. The problem with monsters that suck is we can't actually identify what's wrong. When things are too hard, it's easy to say why. This system is rubbish, that specific maneuver doesn't do well, etc. When it's all too easy, you don't need anything but your basic attack. Everything else is wasted and it's impossible to get any real gameplay evidence that something is borked. Basically I can't playtest this system properly with the mobs this easy. I've started to double all the HP values of all the monsters and that's given me a little bit more, but the accuracy is weird too. ACs on the higher end are far, far too low. Can we just crank up the diff and make this big weepy eyed puppy into a dire wolf with chainsaws for teeth? Then we'll really be able to tell you what's underperforming.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 21, 2012 - 11:51AM
#2
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Why is easy. They don't hit you, and if they do hit you, your dead.
So increase their to-hit, or decrease armor (or both).
And add more hit points, or decrease damage (or both).
Try +5 to hit and double the HP.
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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 21, 2012 - 12:18PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Jan 21, 2004
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The first playtest did feel better to me. I think that the first method of determining PC hp, while not perfect, was better than the current system. I'd rather see front loaded hp and slower progression with limited or no Con bonus added per level.
The monsters probably just need a slight boost to hit for starters. I think +1 brutes, +2 normal, and +3 highly skilled would be a good start and see how that feels.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 21, 2012 - 2:51PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2012
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The pack tactics using monsters were fine on to-hit. I'd throw a boatload at players, they'd get hit once and that hit was significant. I don't think a universal hit boost is necessary for that reason. Mostly my problem are the hit points, but again it's difficult to playtest the game as written if I have to go and rewrite all the monsters, and my blanket changes are creating inconsistencies. Honestly, I just want the core abilities - to hit, ac, hit points - to be completely reworked. Some indication of challenge rating would be nice too, so I have a notion of what monster is designed for what level range. ... I just had a horrible thought. They didn't have challenge ratings or somesuch, do they? Like have I been grumbling about this the whole time and they've been there?
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7 months ago ::
Nov 21, 2012 - 3:08PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Dec 21, 2011
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For most monsters, I don't mind the hit points, but I do like to boost HP for special representatives, making Elite types for leaders or warriors, etc. (For that reason, I'd love for WotC to develop a standard template for an elite monster).
I've been playing with +2 to hit for all monsters and it has worked well for my group. At first level, the damage the monsters do is a little scary, but once the PCs get past 1st level it becomes more manageable. To vary the damage, I often give different monsters of the same race different weapons so that I can vary their damage. My players enjoy encountering Orcs that wield shortswords, longswords, battle axes, maces, and one or two of the great axe wielding kind. This also lets me make some encounters less dangerous or more dangerous based purely on the weapons the monsters use.
Bigger mobs are still dangerous even without the added to hit bonus, so I try to limit numbers vs. the PCs most of the time. Even with the 2nd playtest package, when 4 stirges swarmed around the rogue, my rogue player freaked out....and almost died twice. He was drained to about 2 hp...ran back to the cleric...got a CLW, and then was drained again to 3 hp before he could detach all of the little nasties.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 22, 2012 - 5:16AM
#6
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I did a huge long post that showed lots of math, but the forum ate it, but it basically boiled down to this is what we should have to get monsters taking two hits to die and being able to bring the fighter down with the average of 60 attacks per day where 2 monsters per round attack the Fighter on average:
Level Fighter Monster Fighter Monster Fighter Monster
Hit Points Hit Points Attack Attack Damage Damage
1 27 11 +8 +2 14.5 2.5
2 36 12 +8 +3 15.5 3.5
3 44 12 +8 +3 15.5 4.5
4 53 16 +9 +3 19 5.5
5 61 16 +9 +3 19 6.5
6 70 24 +9 +3 31 7.5
7 78 24 +9 +3 31 8.5
8 87 26 +9 +3 34 9.5
9 95 28 +10 +3 34 10.5
10 104 33 +10 +3 40.5 11.5
Fighter hit points have to be Constitution + Max Hit Dice at level 1 and average hit dice + constitution mod at every level.
The monsters hit points have to average out to the numbers given.
If you want to increase the monster hit chance you would have to lower the average damage:
Level Fighter Monster Fighter Monster Fighter Monster
Hit Points Hit Points Attack Attack Damage Damage
1 27 11 +8 +2 14.5 2.5
2 36 12 +8 +4 15.5 2.5
3 44 12 +8 +4 15.5 3.5
4 53 16 +9 +5 19 3.5
5 61 16 +9 +5 19 3.5
6 70 24 +9 +5 31 4.5
7 78 24 +9 +6 31 4.5
8 87 26 +9 +6 34 4.5
9 95 28 +10 +6 34 5.5
10 104 33 +10 +7 40.5 5.5
This would allow for monsters to last 2 rounds and 2 monsters to attack the Fighter. The average AC of the Fighter would be 15. The numbers should jump up a bit if you assume Fighters have AC 17 or 18.
Anything less is Rocket tag as we have right now, or low level characters being able to solo higher level monsters in order to actually be a challenge...
Elite or solo monsters would look like this:
Level Fighter Monster Fighter Monster Fighter Monster
Hit Points Hit Points Attack Attack Damage Damage
1 27 48 +8 +3 14.5 3.5
2 36 48 +8 +4 15.5 3.5
3 44 48 +8 +5 15.5 3.5
4 53 64 +9 +5 19 3.5
5 61 64 +9 +5 19 4.5
6 70 96 +9 +6 31 4.5
7 78 96 +9 +6 31 4.5
8 87 104 +9 +6 34 5.5
9 95 112 +10 +7 34 5.5
10 104 132 +10 +7 40.5 5.5
This would allow 4 attacks on the solo/elite per round and it would deal the same damage to a target as 2 monsters...
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7 months ago ::
Nov 22, 2012 - 6:02AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2007
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I did a huge long post that showed lots of math, but the forum ate it,
How did you get that, seems to me it was mainly met with derision, aside from the "gang"?
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7 months ago ::
Nov 22, 2012 - 6:20AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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I thik the best solutio is to have hidden monster roles. Monster Roles like 4e but hidden in the system.
Every monster gets a bonus to hit, to AC, to HP per HD, or to damage based on the level.
Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds.
Constitution Based Class for Next!
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7 months ago ::
Nov 22, 2012 - 9:18AM
#9
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I did a huge long post that showed lots of math, but the forum ate it,
How did you get that, seems to me it was mainly met with derision, aside from the "gang"?
I have no clue what you are trying to say here? Are you inebriated?
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7 months ago ::
Nov 22, 2012 - 9:41AM
#10
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I thik the best solutio is to have hidden monster roles. Monster Roles like 4e but hidden in the system.
Every monster gets a bonus to hit, to AC, to HP per HD, or to damage based on the level.
For DMs (like myself) that like to tinker with monsters, make their own monsters and give 'levels' to monsters... 'hiding' things is the worst.
Seeing the math and being able to manipulate it is key for me.
I rather they create templates or monster/npc 'classes' or even 'roles' that are not hidden and can be applied to monsters by the DM.
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