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6 months ago ::
Nov 21, 2012 - 5:00PM
#41
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Date Joined:
May 22, 2003
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The Law/Chaos axis has pretty much always been stupid and confusing. The problem is that it generally comprises of many things, such as following the laws of the land, following a personal code and keeping your word. Of course, these things come into conflict.
For instance, Batman. Most people would say he's chaotic good. He is after all a vigilante. However, he also follows a rigid code where he won't kill criminals, which would generally make him lawful. He's also a monk and has undergone rigorous martial arts training, also generally a lawful trait. So what is he?
What about Robin Hood. Another character people would say is chaotic good. He's disobeying the sheriff. However, the Sheriff is actually working against the king, and since the king is the higher authority, doesn't that make Robin in fact lawful, because he's working to keep the rightful ruler in power? So... lawful or chaotic?
These are oversimplifications that are creating a conundrum that is separate from what law and chaos embody. Law is order and predictability, whereas chaos is disorder and unpredictability. Batman lives an ordered existence, and his choices are predictable; he's a lawful individual. Robin Hood lives by his wits, makes decisions that reflect the moment he's in, and can't be counted upon to make the same move or decision twice; he's a chaotic individual. Batman rigidly adheres to a set of tenets (they are personal and outside the law, but they are strict and shape his person), and Robin Hood has a very loose process of making choices (they can be wild and only serve to promote good without regard for any reasoning beyond uplifting the poor), which makes pretty solid examples of lawfulness and chaoticness.
And of course you run into the typical question: Does a paladin have to obey the laws in an evil city, simply because he's lawful, even if the law happens to be wrong?
He does not, no. Lawfulness is not specific to man's law, and lawfulness is separate from good and evil. Laws of an evil city or structured by evil, which is in opposition to the goodness a paladin champions. He must maintain his belief in what is right and righteous; the maintenance of which exemplifies his lawful character.
In the end, the game would be better off without law/chaos. You can keep around the planes dealing with them, but as far as personal alignment, it hardly matters. Nobody ever casts detect law or chaos anyway.
I think the game is made rich with the inclusion of law and chaos, I just think they need to be presented more coherently (and with better examples). 
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6 months ago ::
Nov 21, 2012 - 5:02PM
#42
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Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2007
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..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />Never to me and mine, this must be a you and yours dilemma.
I find it bright and illuminating.
Okay, then you should have no problem providing me an unambiguous definition of what makes a character lawful, chaotic or neutral.
I don't have that kind of time, go and read some philosophy, chief.
And, ambiguity is part of the deal.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 21, 2012 - 5:06PM
#43
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Date Joined:
Oct 25, 2010
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Okay, then you should have no problem providing me an unambiguous definition of what makes a character lawful, chaotic or neutral.
I don't have that kind of time, go and read some philosophy, chief.
And, ambiguity is part of the deal.
Why am I not surprised you can't defend your position when called out on it.
If there's ambiguity then people being confused is natural. You can't claim it's clear and then claim that it's also ambiguous.
Your house of cards is knocked over by the slightest breeze.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 21, 2012 - 5:13PM
#44
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Date Joined:
Oct 25, 2010
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These are oversimplifications that are creating a conundrum that is separate from what law and chaos embody. Law is order and predictability, whereas chaos is disorder and unpredictability. Batman lives an ordered existence, and his choices are predictable; he's a lawful individual. Robin Hood lives by his wits, makes decisions that reflect the moment he's in, and can't be counted upon to make the same move or decision twice; he's a chaotic individual. Batman rigidly adheres to a set of tenets (they are personal and outside the law, but they are strict and shape his person), and Robin Hood has a very loose process of making choices (they can be wild and only serve to promote good without regard for any reasoning beyond uplifting the poor), which makes pretty solid examples of lawfulness and chaoticness.
Batman lives by his wits a lot. He's a master of improvisation. He's anything but predictable. One of his main features in fact is his ability to outwit his enemies by coming up with some original strategy or tactic.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 21, 2012 - 5:19PM
#45
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Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2007
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Okay, then you should have no problem providing me an unambiguous definition of what makes a character lawful, chaotic or neutral.
I don't have that kind of time, go and read some philosophy, chief.
And, ambiguity is part of the deal.
Why am I not surprised you can't defend your position when called out on it.
If there's ambiguity then people being confused is natural. You can't claim it's clear and then claim that it's also ambiguous.
Your house of cards is knocked over by the slightest breeze.
Save it; just read, trust me (your confusion might be staunched).
There is no need to get passive-aggressive because people are not on your train.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 21, 2012 - 5:21PM
#46
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Date Joined:
Oct 25, 2010
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Save it; just read, trust me (your confusion might be staunched).
There is no need to get passive-aggressive because people are not on your train.
You're the one who goes passive-aggressive, with the "Trust me, I know what I'm talking about" crap, and then responding with "Oh you want me to explain? Nah screw you, go read some books."
If one of my PCs asks about alignment, I'm not going to give them a reading list. If you can't explain it in a paragraph or two, then it's too complicated to be in the game. This is an RPG, not some philosophy course.
Now either explain your position, or admit you can't explain it.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 21, 2012 - 5:27PM
#47
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Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2007
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Nah screw you
...screw me...wow...such umbrage, I think I will...no one quite pleases one's self like one's self...thanks...
As for alignment, seriously, there is so much to dig about it, go for it, go for the gold, baby!
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6 months ago ::
Nov 21, 2012 - 6:12PM
#48
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Date Joined:
May 22, 2003
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Batman lives by his wits a lot. He's a master of improvisation. He's anything but predictable. One of his main features in fact is his ability to outwit his enemies by coming up with some original strategy or tactic.
He's not going to kill the bad guy.
He's not going to pull a gun.
...predictable points that are directly related to his lawfulness.
Strategy and tactics applied to overcoming obstacles are not the stuff of law vs. chaos.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 21, 2012 - 6:22PM
#49
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2008
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admit you can't explain it.
I think it is this one. But on a previous page there was an admission that there is no problem. My spider sense is telling me that it is a case of hostile arguing for the sake of hostile arguing.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 21, 2012 - 6:31PM
#50
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
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The alignments should be:
altruistic
uncaring
selfish
An altruistic person can commit evil acts, but generally means well and is trying to do "good". Leon in the Professional is a good example here. A hit-man who saves a little girl and takes her in once her parents have been killed.
Uncaring means you could care less one way or the other.
Selfish means you do things that are most likely to benefit you. You might perform a good act such as saving a princess for a monetary reward.
I chose these 3 simply because a person can run along the spectrum of both good and evil at the same time and the line tends to be blurry at best. They also give players a sense of their motivations.
Suppose I'm not any of those three.......which is likely with most of my very different characters.
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