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7 months ago ::
Nov 21, 2012 - 8:37PM
#161
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Date Joined:
May 22, 2003
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Is the cleric not a viable choice for the person who wants to build a deity's champion? 
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7 months ago ::
Nov 21, 2012 - 8:37PM
#162
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2011
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For that reason, I see this Divine Champion/Templar being am alternative that lets the Paladin still capture what the Paladin of old was
Paladins have been different than the paladin of "old" for 12 years now. A full third of the time D&D has been around. It's too late to change it now.
Maybe they haven't been exactly the same as the Paladins of old. Still, all the Paladins that I have ever played are lawful/good champions of goodness and justice. I have played since second addition and I haven't noticed much of a difference. Still, experiences and opinions vary.
That said, would it really be bad to keep the Paladin as the Paladin of old and let a new class capture the champion of a deity? Were the Wizard and Sorcerer of 3 and 3.5e substantially different?
Except why have two identical classes when you can save space in the PHB by just making one?
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7 months ago ::
Nov 21, 2012 - 8:43PM
#163
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Date Joined:
May 22, 2003
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Point of information: the 'core' paladin was lawful in OD&D, and lawful good in 1E, 2E and 3XE. In 4E they were of an alignment dictated by their chosen deity.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 21, 2012 - 8:46PM
#164
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Date Joined:
Nov 12, 2012
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Simply put, they would not be identical classes. If you feel that the Wizard and Sorcerer are the same, then I can understand where you are coming from. That said, a fighter/cleric could express it, but not in flavor really. Yet Warmage/Swordmage is around to express fighter/mage. A cleric itself, is primarily a caster, although it can kind of fight(emphasis on kind of). Paladin is typically regarded as a holy champion of good and justice(not definitively associated with a deity).
To the skeptics: Do you believe in the Wizard, Sorcerer, Warlock, Bard, and Swordmage classes?
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7 months ago ::
Nov 21, 2012 - 8:48PM
#165
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Is the cleric not a viable choice for the person who wants to build a deity's champion?
Depends on campaign. In some, no because the cleric is not a viable warrior. In some, yes because the cleric is filled with the deity's blessing.
If you ask me, fluff is easily mutable to fit a campaign. Mechanics, not so easily mutable. That's why I'd rather look at it from the mechanics/dynamics perspective, rather than the aesthetics/dynamics perspective: because a paladin, a cleric, and any character that wields a magical item that can serve as a channel upon which that deity can manifest his will, all of them can represent "a deity's champion". Just like how a paladin, fighter, barbarian, ranger, rogue and any other class can easily be refluffed into, and role-played as, the embodiment of ideals. But even when looking at any edition of D&D, the Paladin is distinctly characterized in two ways: it's a warrior type class, who has divine type magic with him (as opposed to the cleric, which is a caster type class, who has proficiency in some weapons and armor). No other class does that, and it's as simple an explanation to the existence of the Paladin as a class mechanically, regardless if he's the champion of a deity, the embodiment of ideals, or the divine equivalent of a warlock.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 21, 2012 - 8:48PM
#166
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Date Joined:
May 11, 2006
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Again, for those wanting non-deity driven paladins:
Forgotten Realms has paladins. Tons of 'em. They're everywhere. And they all have patron deities. That's just the way the Realms works. That's an official D&D campaign setting.
So how do you reconcile that with the desire to restrict such a thing from the rulebook? Why not leave it as an option for those that choose it?
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7 months ago ::
Nov 21, 2012 - 8:51PM
#167
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Date Joined:
May 11, 2006
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Something else that just occurred to me:
All this talk of requiring LG restrictions on paladins...
Wasn't there just a nuclear meltdown of cataclysmic proportions a few weeks back about the monk's alignment restrictions?
But now its OK to be even more authoritarian with how this class is portrayed and played?
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7 months ago ::
Nov 21, 2012 - 8:53PM
#168
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2011
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Simply put, they would not be identical classes. If you feel that the Wizard and Sorcerer are the same, then I can understand where you are coming from. That said, a fighter/cleric could express it, but not in flavor really. Yet Warmage/Swordmage is around to express fighter/mage. A cleric itself, is primarily a caster, although it can kind of fight(emphasis on kind of). Paladin is typically regarded as a holy champion of good and justice(not definitively associated with a deity).
To the skeptics: Do you believe in the Wizard, Sorcerer, Warlock, Bard, and Swordmage classes?
The thing is, the Wizard, Warlock, Bard, Sorceror, and Swordmage have been, while similar, still different enough with varying mechanics to be considered seperate classes.
You can't say the same about a Paladin class that's LG only, then the same Paladin class that is whatever it's deity's alignment is.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 21, 2012 - 8:56PM
#169
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Date Joined:
Sep 19, 2006
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I honestly don't care at this point because DDN really isn't starting to shape into the game I'm looking to play.
Perfect, totally shaping up (except for that last packet...) to the game I want to play; so, off you go, please stop posting around these parts.
Bwhahahahaha! Naaaa, not that easy friend.
To be honest, I had considerd dropping out entirely after reading the Monk but ya know what, the game isn't over until those books are published (or at least, the Beta) so I'm going to voice LOUD AND CLEAR on all their mistakes and problems that arise. I'm going to point out the huge flaws I see in their game design and continually argue for a game that I want.
Every. Single. Day. 
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7 months ago ::
Nov 21, 2012 - 9:02PM
#170
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Date Joined:
Sep 19, 2006
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Is the cleric not a viable choice for the person who wants to build a deity's champion?
Not really. Champion often incudes those who.........fight for a cause. You don't really get that sense with the Clerics *yawn*-esque Weapon attack progression or dismal weapon selection.
But it would depend on how good the Ftr/Clr multiclass is. From personal experience with v3.5/Pathfinder a Ftr/Clr is just plain better than a straight up Paladin mechanically speaking. This is doubly true for those with DMs who consistantly challenge the Paladin's code and other crap to get him to "fall". So going by the info so far on Multiclassing, it might just be easier for a player to go Ftr/Clr and call himself a Paladin in character rather than jumping through all the moronic hoops for a sub-optimal class in the first place.
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