Community

Class systems have one major advantage that is undeniable, ease of play.  This is why D&D has and continues to be the most popular game in the hobby of role-playing.  You pick your race, pick your class, some basic abilities and you are ready to go.  Classes allow the rest of the system to be simple and above all else classes requiere considerably less preperation as a GM through their simplicity.

Now that said I am a big advocate for classless system, but as that applies to D&D, I would say I'm more an advocate for a defined skill point system that covers the class system of D&D.  Another words, I would like to know how the classes are balanced and have a value for each skill, ability, power, etc... of the classess so that when I roll up my sleeves and make a change, I have a foundation on how that class system was built and I have the core system for how to build classes.  I do believe however D&D should remain a class system simply for the very obvious reason that this is what people want.  I think if you polled D&D players and asked them whether D&D should remain a class system or not, the large majority would say it should remain a class system.


I will say this though, despite that, GURPS remains my go to game system for one reason that D&D will never be able to compete with.  Flexibility.  With GURPS there is absolutly no campaign world you can conceive, no action a player can take, no genre you could think of and no style of play that exist that isn't firmly covered in obsessive detail in the core system or one of the hundreds of excelent modules written for it.  From Mass Combat, to the Wild West Genre, From Science Fiction Fantasy to Science Reality, from World of Darkness to Dungeons Crawls... You name it and I can find a 200 page source book that covers in great detail.  As a GM this is an invaluable aspect of the game because it allows you complete freedom without ever having to worry about coverage both in terms of mechanics and advice.  I mean recenetly my ongoing GURPS campaign resulted in the players getting into a position to lead an army into battle, 9.99 later I have the Mass Combat source book in my hand that covers every conceivable angle and style to run that combat, I pick my rules, and I'm running a great battle in my games.  GURPS never disapoints in this way and this is one of the reasons for it, its the perfect system.


The draw back however of open classless systems like GURPS is that as a GM you have to be considerably more dedicated to preperation and reading than what you would need to in a D&D game, in particular more recent game systems like 4th edition.  I would concede that GURPS is definitily not for your average every day GM, it requires a far larger commitment and far more attention to detail to get it right.        

Build the classes out of a classless framework.
It's that simple.

Classes then become simple prepackaged collections of abilities, with the root system underneath for anyone who wants to dink around in it.  Such a model makes traditional classes, BECMI race-classes, Skills & Powers, 3E multiclassing, 4E multiclassing, and 4E hybriding all emulatable fairly accurately.  1E/2E dual- and multi-classing probably wouldn't be emulated as cleanly, but can be half-assed together reasonably well enough.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 5:27PM, Phoenix182 wrote:

Impossible for me to disagree more. D&D is, always has been, and always needs to be, a class-based system. WotC should feel free to create an infinite number of non-class-based games, but none of them would be D&D.

While pre-3rd wasn't PERFECTLY class-based (allowed multi-classing, had optional proficiencies, etc), it was pretty close. Third moved directly away from being class-based, and 4th moved somewhat laterally, which is one big reason why we don't play those editions much.

For 5th to win us over it must return to being HEAVILY class-based.

I just want to throw my support out there for this post.

While not being a pre-3rd player myself, I really enjoyed the class, and the multiclassing system of 3e. I also do in fact play games that are classless, and I enjoy those too. But they are in fact not D&D. If I didn't enjoy a class-based system, I wouldn't use it. I would scrap it and write my own system, or rather I would scrap it and use one of several alternate systems I wrote up for other games, including my own original RPG. I like options, but I also like classes, because they're interesting, and they feel unique when compared and constrasted to one another.

At least they're supposed to. Still waiting to see that happen with Next. Really, on one level the OP is right. With the way they're doing things right now, they really might as well just scrap classes entirely. I want a class-based game, with plenty to differentiate the classes. If I feel like I'm getting the exact same experience from two separate classes, I won't be happy.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 7:45PM, mexrage wrote:

Or you can actually make the system balanced so most if not all options are considered even by power gamers...thought because of how D&DNext is now right now...everything is damage output per round as of now...

If there is even a midly respectable amount and variety of options, this won't be possible. There will always be combinations that are superior to others, and then with a classless system, you've got a few boring cookie-cutter builds that everyone is going to figure out in the first two weeks. The only way to change it up will be new books and other splat material. I already went through constant re-balancing with MMOs, and it was hell enough when the new patches were free.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 7:35PM, Rs06 wrote:

Another threat of class-less system:

The threat of homogenization:  The powergamer will always try to select the best abilities available, the abilities available that work best together in synergy, or a combination of both.  Feats, spells, skills, and abilities would have to be incredibly balanced.  If not, prerequisite abilities would be analyzed in great detail and selected merely on the basis of getting access to the best combination of abilities. 

...and what is the end result?  Players are going to have many of the same abilities and there will be likely a large pool of untouched abilities. 

The more delicate situation in balance:  Restrict the prerequisites of abilities too little and game balance goes pretty much out the window. Restrict the prerequisites too much and all you really have is a disguised class system

The empasized part highlights a very real danger. When you make it to where everyone can have everything, you run the risk of making everyone the same. When that happens, the game becomes boring. When the game becomes boring, people stop playing it.

I've no disagreement that the ideal system would be classless with example classes built off of it.  But in practice D&D is far too complex for such a system to be properly playtested.  Classes are necessary because they are points which we can properly playtest.  Extrapolation into a classless system is something that should be explored by houserulers after the system comes out, but I predict their most balanced experiments will better form the bases for new hybrid classes rather than be balanced throughout the system.

OTOH, I do think they should move towards a classless sytem to the extent that they reasonably can playtest.  Backgrounds and the new skill system are a good step in the rigth direction.  But even those systems still need work.