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7 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 12:24PM
#11
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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A Triggerred Free action resolve as an Immediate Reaction unless it needs to interrupt in order to function. In this case it needs to.
Because the designation as being a Free Action is an error. Death burst effects are always supposed to be No Action, not Free Action. They can't be interrupts. Making them interrupts is wrong, an error on the part of the writer of the monster, and should be referred to the Errata team for correction.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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7 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 2:11PM
#12
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Date Joined:
May 24, 2008
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Are you sure of that?
The wildly different outcomes of being a Free Action vs. a No action makes me feel that it is, indeed, intended.
As a No Action, the orc, could charge across the battlefield, taking a hundred points of damage, ignoring damaging zones, auras, opportunity attacks, interrupts, and, after that, die. But he couldn't had any chance of surviving, as he's already dead.
As a Free Action he could just move away of the slaying attack range, thus turning the hit into a miss. But another damaging enough attack would bring him down.
It's very different. what makes you so sure of the No Action as the correct way of implementing it?
As an aside, Mand12, I'd love to hear your take on the resolution steps as a Free Action on the former post.
Thanks for your patience.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 2:36PM
#13
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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Consider an actual death burst. There are lots of creatures that do this, they literally blow up when they die.
If that blowing up interrupts and kills the thing attacking them, then they don't die. But if they don't die, then why did they blow up?
The rules are clear, but there's a logical paradox. A paradox that's solved by requiring all death bursts to have reaction timing, at the fastest.
Yes, if you have a free action triggered by "drop to 0 or fewer hitpoints" then it must be an interrupt to function, because "drop to 0 or fewer hitpoints" causes unconsciousness (death for NPCs), and the application of the "You can't take actions." effect, which would prevent you from using a free action. Which then, as per the triggered free action rules, requires it to be an interrupt. And as an interrupt, your interpretation is correct.
But the problem is they can't be an interrupt, due to the logical paradox presented above. Which is why labeling "drop to 0 or fewer hitpoints" as free actions is an error, and a demonstration that the writer of the feature doesn't fully understand the implications of the designation.
The "must be an interrupt to function" argument, on its face, correct, but it misses an important subtlety. The point of that rule is to prevent changing something that has already resolved, as a reaction. That's a no-no, you need to be an interrupt to do that. It does not mean that running into the "You can't take actions" rule means that you then trigger the "it must be an interrupt to function" clause. That's like saying a free action that has a trigger that happens to go off when you're also afflicted with Stunned at the same time as the trigger (such as "you become bloodied") then functions as an interrupt. No, it doesn't - it's still a reaction, and you can't use it due to being nailed by the Stunned condition and you can't take actions, including the free action you would have wanted to use.
Now, don't get me wrong, there are legitimate "drop to 0 or fewer hitpoints" triggers that are interrupts, but they're actually specified as such. But that particular trigger does not play well with the general triggered free action timing rules, hence the discrepancy.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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7 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 3:06PM
#14
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Date Joined:
May 24, 2008
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I understand taht a death burst should be a No action. That's clear. There are only two things I don't like about your reasoning on the "it has to be a No action" argument.
- You defend it from a fluff pow. Of course I respect that, but I'd like to take as analytical a view as possible. It is what it is, let's forget why it is. I know, I know, it's an RPG and so on, but please indulge me. Also, the real thing is that the orc does not blow up. In fact, there's some Orc entries on the MM and MV that make Savage Demise as a "the orc makes a Basic Attack" and not "takes a Standard Action".
- The Interrupt frequently form paradoxes. The Avenger with Battle Awareness and Power of Skill of the example. In a typical numpad position "Avenger at 2, Enemy at 5, ally at 8" position, the enemy attacks the ally, triggering the BA interrupt, hit, the avenger shifts to 1 and slides the enemy to 2, out of range. The enemy's attack is wasted... but then if it wasted, what triggered the Battle Awareness on the first place?
All in all, I'm happy to see that we managed to get the chain of resolution right. Thank you. And please forgive any grammar mistake, english is not my native tongue
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7 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 6:52PM
#15
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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It is what it is, let's forget why it is.
This perspective excludes the possibility that what it is is wrong.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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7 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 7:03PM
#16
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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The paradox is caused by Interrupt taking place when its trigger occurs, but before it finishes, possibly invalidating it in the process.
An Orc hasn't been reduced to 0 hit point when Savage Demise triggers as a free action as it resolve before it happens.
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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7 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 8:04PM
#17
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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But the point is that such death effects shouldn't be interrupts.
And, as that power is written - it's not. Since it's a No Action. There are a lot of other similar effects that are also no action. All the ones that aren't are errors, and should be referred to the Errata team.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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7 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 8:23PM
#18
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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That power has several different action type depending on the creature: Severed Eyes Orc Slasher - Savage Demise (Immediate Interrupt)
Battlertested Orc - Savage Demise (Free action)
Severed Eyes Orc Bludgeoner - Savage Demise (No Action) To name a few...
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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7 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 8:28PM
#19
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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I was using the one that was quoted in the OP.
And the demonstration of inconsistency on the part of the writers does not change what the rule should be.
And yes, I am confident in stating what the rule should be.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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7 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 8:30PM
#20
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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Interrupt powers triggering upon being reduced to 0 hit point are not errors. They are specifically made to interrupt their trigger and give the possibility to invalidate the triggering action and cause it to be lost.
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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