I've been lurking on this forums for quite a while, and I'm fairly comfident to have a more than acceptable grab on the 4e rules (that I love, fwiw). But in last evening's game a situation arised so convoluted that I have to be certain we've handled correctly.
It all comes down to the orc's "Savage Demise" racial power. It grants the orc a standard action when reduced to 0 hit points as a free action. I take it is one of those cases where this free action has to be resolved as an interrupt, otherwise the orc would be dead an thus unable to take any action.
Orc Troll Shaman Medium natural humanoid Level 6 Controller (Leader) XP 250 HP 72; Bloodied 36 Initiative +4 AC 20, Fortitude 18, Reflex 18, Will 19 Perception+7 Speed 6 Low-light vision Traits Troll Spirit Frenzy Aura 10 Any ally within the aura that bloodies an enemy can make a basic attack as a free action. Regeneration 5 (healing) The orc troll shaman regains 5 hit points whenever it starts its turn and has at least 1 hit point. If the orc troll shaman takes acid or fire damage, its regeneration does not function on its next turn. Safewing Amulet When the orc troll shaman falls, reduce the distance by 10 feet for the purpose of calculating damage. The orc troll shaman always lands on its feet after a fall. Troll Healing (healing) If the orc troll shaman is dropped to 0 hit points by an attack that does not deal acid or fire damage, it falls prone and remains at 0 hit points until the start of its next turn, when it regains 5 hit points. If an attack deals acid or fire damage to the orc troll shaman while it is at 0 hit points, it is dead. Standard Actions Longspear (weapon) At-Will Attack: Melee 2 (one creature); +11 vs. AC Hit: 2d10 + 3 damage, and the orc slides the target 1 square. Phantom Troll Claws At-Will Attack: Area burst 2 within 10 (enemies in the burst); +8 vs. Will Hit: 2d6 damage, and the target is dazed until the end of the orc’s next turn. Effect: Each ally in the burst gains a +2 bonus to attack rolls until the start of the orc’s next turn. Triggered Actions Savage Demise Encounter Trigger: The orc drops to 0 hit points. Effect (No Action): The orc takes a standard action.
A was the group's Avenger and W the Warlord.
Avenger's turn, he strikes with Bond Of Foresight Spoiler:Show
Bond of Foresight A bond of fate links you to your enemy, giving you the ability to foresee its every move. Whenever it moves or attacks you, you’re ready. Daily Divine, Weapon Standard Action Melee weapon Target: One creature Attack: Wisdom vs. AC Hit: 2[W] + Wisdom modifier damage. Miss: Half damage. Effect: When the target hits or misses you or shifts, the target provokes an opportunity attack from you (save ends).
Orc Turn: Attacks Avenger with Longspear. Hit for 21 damage, bringing him down
- Bond of Foresight activates, and it's an opportunity action, so it Interrupts the Orc Attacks.
MBA Attack: Overwhelming strike - hit for 14 damage, killing the Orc. The avenger shifts one space back, (could he? or does the interrupt triggers before that?) and decide not to slide the Orc, not knowing of his Melee 2 attacks.
X X X X X W E X A X X X
- Orc Killed: triggers Savage Demise. Since it's a free action, it can be taken on your own turn, unlike opportunity o immediate action.
Orc charges the warlord, passing by the Avenger, who has already used his OA on the orc's turn. Hits the warlord for 17 damage, ko'd him
X X X X E W X X A X X X
When his free action interrupt ends, we continue resolving actions: the Avenger's Overwhelming Strike is now out of range, so it is wasted, and since the poor fellow moved back, is in range of the Orc original Longspear attack, so he goes down along his comrade.
So the orc took advantage of the Avenger's power to strike, charge and leave unconscious two PC without taking a single hit point of damage. He only lost the Savage Demise use for the encounter.
Was this resolution correct? Did we do something wrong?
On the orc's Melee 2 charge: Does the orc HAVE to move all the way with his Melee 2? Could he stop a square before? Must he?
And for an extra layer of complexity, what if this were the layout when the charge strikes:?
X X X E W X X A X X
Allowing the Avenger to use his Multiclass Fighter Battle Awareness Interrupt Attack? If this attacks hits doing enough damage to kill the orc, would that invalidate all the rest of the attacks and effects?
One player argued that since the orc had charged, he couldn't take any more actions on his turn, and the DM (and me) thought that correct, but that the first attack on the Avenger was an action already taken, waiting for resolution, and not an action to be taken. The shaman could not move after the free action charge, but the Avenger was hit, right?
We found Savage Demise extremely challenging, and a small bunch of orcs is kicking our **** day after day, but I want to make sure of the whole situation.
Bond of Foresight's OA kills the Orc, this renders invalid the attack that triggered the OA.
Savage Demise is a no action, not a free action. It does not have interrupt timing, it simply happens. The orc is already dead, but these sort of no action abilities are specifically meant to allow after-death effects. Being dead means you can't take actions, but because it's a no action you can do it. Yes, the power says "the orc takes a standard action" but that's a specific exception to the general rules about being dead.
So, the Avenger's OA has completely and fully resolved when the Orc takes his action. This is really the key point. The OA resolves, invalidating the triggering attack - full stop. Then we go to the next step, Savage Demise.
If the Orc then charges the Warlord, the Avenger is correctly not able to do anything about it, having already used his opportunity action for the turn. The Orc is still dead, and keels over after completing his charge.
If the Avenger has Battle Awareness, and attacks the Orc as an interrupt on the charge, it won't do any good. The orc is already dead. He's charging through a no action effect. Even if it did infinite damage, it wouldn't prevent the attack. You could prevent the attack if the Avenger's attack did something else to invalidate the attack, beyond killing the target, such as moving the Orc out of range of the target (such as a Power of Skill Overwhelming Strike, which is highly useful for exactly that purpose), but simply dealing damage to the Orc doesn't do anything, because the Orc's already dead, and doing the charge as a no action.
There is an exception to the "your turn ends" bit in the charge rules, and that is that you can take Free Actions. No Action effects also can happen, as well.
The charge rules have also been changed from their original printing, you are no longer required to stop at the farthest away point you can attack from if you have Reach. You can choose where you want to stop.
Ok, so I've looked again at the stats and you're right. And thanks for the real quick answer!
But... the Orc Troll Shaman is the ONLY orc I've seen with Savage Demise as a No Action. All the rest (and thus it was asumed OTS also) has as a Free action or, in the case of Orc Wolf Shaman as an Inmediate Interrupt. (¿?). Maybe it has something to do with his troll blood...
So let's assume it is a Free Action, after all, as most of the remaining orcs.
A Triggerred Free action resolve as an Immediate Reaction unless it needs to interrupt in order to function. In this case it needs to.
So in either case the Orc has started being reduced to 0 hit points but hasn't finished yet when he act throught Savage Demise, or he already has and still do anyways.
If Savage Demise is a No Action, then the Orc takes it when he's already dead. So any additional damage it may take, (Battle awareness, our Paladin's Mark, zones, etc) do nothing to stop the action, for it changes nothing on the enemy.
If it is a Free Action, as in most of all Orc entries, then the action is taken just before it goes down to 0 hit points because, as Plague pointed out, it needs to be an interrupt or else the orc would be dead and thus unable to take actions. But in this case, if it suffers more damage, bringing him down to 0 hp again, why doesn't this foil the standard action? He's now at 0 hit points and having used Savage Demise already. Savage Demise does not make him Immune All Damage during its Granted Standard action, doesn't it?
Again on our example, with BA thrown in the mix, and please consider Savage Demise as a Free Action, for it would help any other future cases we may have: ours is a group with a lot of off-turn actions (Warlord's Vengeance is Mine, an Artificer's Shocking feedback, Battle Awareness, Paladin's Mark...).
Correct if I'm wrong, but don't Interrupt actions resolve as a LIFO queue? So
Orc attack (hit)
trigger BoF Opp Attack (hit, enough damage to kill orc) ¿shift now?
trigger Savage Demise (charge, orc still alive)
trigger Battle Awar (hit, kill orc)
charge lost due to orc dead
Opp attack wasted (and avenger does NOT get to shift thanks to Overwhelming strike, target already dead)
Orc attack wasted, dead
Orc attack (hit)
trigger BoF Opp Attack (hit, enough damage to kill orc) ¿shift now?
trigger Savage Demise (charge, orc still alive)
trigger Battle Awar (miss, or hit w/o enough damage)
charge ko's the Warlord
Opp attack hit (and avenger does get to shift thanks to Overwhelming strike), killing the orc
Orc attack wasted, dead
Now suppose Orc under Divine Sanction, and the 5-square initial layout
Orc attack (hit)
trigger BoF Opp Attack (hit, enough damage to kill orc) ¿shift now?
trigger Savage Demise (charge, orc still alive)
trigger Paladin's Divine Sanction (not enough damage to kill orc)
charge ko's the Warlord
Opp attack wasted, as now target is beyond power's range, and orc still alive, but with Savage Demise expended for the encounter
Orc attack hit thanks to his Melee 2 range, ko'ing the Avenger.
Orc cannot do any more actions, for it charged this turn.
Are these correct?
If not, can you put a step-by-step resolution process?
Also, thins make me wonder exactly what are the atomic elements of an interrupted action? Each square of movement, the to-hit roll, the damage roll... what about conditions granted by the hit? what about effects of the power?
Sorry for the double-post, but I take that in the last example above, the Paladin's Divine Sanction Damage would've been triggered by the initial attack on the Avenger, and not on the former charge.
It's just an example for the sake of the argument, please assume any other form of damage (a harming zone, another player's Interrupts) that does not enough to kill the Orc.
You would be correct about the end result (Orc gets killed by the Battle Awareness, and having already used Savage Demise, is now simply dead and unable to complete the Savage Demise Charge) EXCEPT: The Orc could have charged to a square in which you couldn't Battle Awareness him.
And yes, if you fail to kill the orc with an Interrupt to his Charge attack, he will complete his initial attack on the Avenger (because the action was already taken) but be unable to take any further actions.
Savage Demise, and really, all Death/Bloody triggers should either be Immediates (and thus unusable on your turn) or No Actions (and thus don't necessarilly prevent you from dying)
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
