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8 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 8:32PM
#21
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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What does the word "Demise" mean?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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8 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 8:36PM
#22
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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Do you really want to start analyzing 4E Power names and their supposed definition cause many are irrevelant you know ? Ignore Weakness doesn't really ignores anything if your saving throw doesn't succeed for exemple  And there's worse...
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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8 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 8:40PM
#23
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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Oh, I know.
My point, however, is that RAI is important. And, beyond that, even beyond RAI, there is what the rules should be. The configuration that makes the rules as effective as they can be at the overall goals of the system.
Is it rigorously defensible? No, of course not. But I stand by the judgment nonetheless.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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8 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 8:48PM
#24
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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RAI is impossible to tell because we have no way to know if those powers were intended to use the action they were given or not.
You could may be make a case for the versions of Savage Demise triggerred as a free action but not really for those triggerred as an immediate interrupt as they are pretty obvious they are meant to interrupt.
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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8 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 8:55PM
#25
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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RAI is impossible to specify, but it's not impossible to generate a reasonable estimate for it.
And I am making the case that even the interrupt ones should be no action, based on the effect interrupts have on the system, the name of the power, the fluff of the creatures that have it, and the result that no action accomplishes all of the goals with none of the self-inconsistencies.
It's an evaluation of a design. It's not rigorously dispassionate and disinterested, no, but it is grounded.
It's for similar reasons that I reject the updated wording of Flaming Weapon, and the same process by which I analyze the Next playtest. Only, it's applied to an existing system.
The fundamental, core assumption that you have to accept to do this is that the system isn't written perfectly, and that there are things that deserve errata. Not just taking the design in a new direction but rather that mistakes were made in executing the goals of the design.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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8 months ago ::
Nov 21, 2012 - 12:59PM
#26
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Yes, they should generally be no-actions, and the orc's would swing while prone and unconcious. But by RAW, they are not. And since it's an interupt (or a free action that needs to act as an interupt), they can be used to escape death. Minotaurs also do this. It's quite fun to run around with 2 HP and eldrich strike 
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my builds
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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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8 months ago ::
Nov 21, 2012 - 1:51PM
#27
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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The power quoted by the OP is not an interrupt.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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8 months ago ::
Nov 21, 2012 - 2:28PM
#28
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Date Joined:
May 24, 2008
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The power quoted by the OP is not an interrupt.
No, it isn't. You're right
I also have stated that we thought it was a Free Action, as were the Savage Demise of every other orc in the enconter. I'm more interested in how that power is handled in every possible case, including as a Free Action. After all, this a Rules Q&A. My question was only aimed and the pure mechanic part of the game. The example, as inadequate as was later proven to be, was an actual game situation. It has not one, but two action interrupts, movement that may nullify attacks, enough damage to combatants to take them down... it was convoluted and we wanted to make sure that this situation as we thought was correctly resolved. So ok, you win, the Orc Troll Shaman Savage Demise Power is a No Action. But that was not the answer I was looking for. And know that I very much appreciate it, but please try to understand my point here.
We have our next session tomorrow. I will try to explain this to the GM and the group. I'm kinda the rules guru, being the one with a DDi sub and who reads this forums and so forth (and the one who bought the books, hehe). We'll let the DM decide how he wants the enemies to be handled, but I think I will proposed to apply the same solution to all of them, whatever that is. So all No Action, Free Action or Interrupt, but all the same. I'm more for the Free Action, if only 'cause it make the defender much more meaningful. It was hopeless to see all that orc minions ignore OA and Divine Sanction/Challenge and charge happily to the squishies.
Btw, the fact is they're not really "orcs", 'cause we're playing on a "Mythic Europe" setting, and the DM looked for zealot, fanatic, berserker-type enemies, and refluffed the Orcs just as he refluffed Kobolds as "Rat-like members of a pestilence Cult". But the stats and powers remained the same.
Thank you all.
Edit: Clarity and spelling
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8 months ago ::
Nov 21, 2012 - 3:16PM
#29
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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Yes, they should generally be no-actions, and the orc's would swing while prone and unconcious.
True, which got me thinking, if Unconscious means you're unuaware of your surrounding, wouldn't it then mean the Orc is also Blinded ?
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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8 months ago ::
Nov 21, 2012 - 5:20PM
#30
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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Yes, they should generally be no-actions, and the orc's would swing while prone and unconcious.
True, which got me thinking, if Unconscious means you're unuaware of your surrounding, wouldn't it then mean the Orc is also Blinded ?
I'm not convinced, now, that the orc is actually deceased at the time it's performing the no action attack. Below 0 hitpoints, yes, but not yet dead.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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