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8 months ago ::
Nov 19, 2012 - 2:00PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Sep 20, 2004
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So, after a lot of conversation, a lot of math, and the like, a few things have become apparent: Sneak Attack and Deadly Strike feel too alike; all the martial classes feel underpowered compared to the fighter. Now, almost everyone still wants the fighter to be the single target DPR king. As a result of all this discussion a lot of ideas have been bandied about. I think one deserves its own thread, because numerically speaking it works pretty well (and helps to deflate instead of inflate some of the damage numbers we have been seeing).
Leave Sneak Attack as is.
Leave Flurry of Blows as is.
Change Deadly Strike to read: Any time you hit with an attack, you may roll any Expertise Dice you have and add the highest result to your damage roll.
As a fighter gets multiple attacks, and you can add at least one die of deadly strike to each attack, the fighter's DPR will still be higher than the Monk or Rogue. At level 10, assuming an 80% hit rate, a Monk will have a DPR of 25 with his fists. A fighter with a greatsword will have a DPR of 32. A rogue (with a hit rate of only 75% due to its lower attack bonus) will have a DPR of 21. (All those numbers are rounded off.) The rogue still seems a little low. However, the rogue will be dealing the single largest numbers when he hits. So, at least his pattern is more spikey, and Sneak Attack will feel unique; one of the biggest problems right now is that it does not feel unique. The monk vs. fighter numbers seem fair (considering what the monk gets and the fighter does not).
I think that is a great start. We still need to find some other way to give the rogue a minor boost. I would suggest that whenever the rogue hits with a Sneak Attack the target hit grants advantage to anyone attacking it until the start of the Rogue's next turn. That way the rogue will have the spikiest damage, the lowest DPR, and he will make up for his low DPR by adding a status effect that helps the group. Meanwhile, the status effect will encourage the group to attack the target, which will tend to keep them adjecent to the target, which in turn will allow the rogue to sneak attack again the following round; this means that he is really helping the group in order to help himself and that feels pretty rogue-like to me. This will keep the rogue feeling useful despite having the lowest DPR mathematically... and let us not forget Skill Mastery!
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8 months ago ::
Nov 19, 2012 - 2:08PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Nov 12, 2012
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Another kind of random and situational idea could be that if a sneak attack is made with a poison or magical substance(such as dust of dryness), the poison or sustance is more effective or harder to resist/make a save from. Just a thought...
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8 months ago ::
Nov 19, 2012 - 2:26PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Sep 20, 2004
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I would rather keep poisons to the assassin myself...
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8 months ago ::
Nov 19, 2012 - 2:39PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Sep 20, 2004
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Another point of interest: the best possible DPR that a 10th level wizard can put out in 11 rounds of daily nova is 300 (all magic missile). Given this model, in 11 rounds a fighter will deal about 352 points of damage. A monk would deal 275 points of damage. A rogue would deal 187 points of damage. Anything past the 11th round and everyone would be dealing a lot more damage than the wizard. Again, considering the fact that the rogue has the same HP as the wizard right now, I think the rogue's survivability needs a significant boost. That being said, with a more AoE based spell list (2 5th level magic missiles, 2 ice storms, 2 fireballs, 2 scorching rays, and 2 1st level magic missiles) a wizard’s damage will change to 567 points spread out amongst various monsters or 239.75 points of damage to any given single target. If a wizard uses any of its magic for utility, defense, or control, those numbers drop further. Unlike the rogue, monk, or fighter it cannot swap out damage for utility on the spot—it must do so at the start of the day. So, as long as rogues get a significant boost to survivability as well, and a target hit by Sneak Attack grants advantage as per my above post, then I subjectively think these numbers are fair.
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8 months ago ::
Nov 19, 2012 - 2:53PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Nov 12, 2012
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I would rather keep poisons to the assassin myself...
Good point. That sort of fluff would be more appropriate to the assassin...
I am looking for any idea that could be used, and it is kind of difficult. Sneak attack is a crutch that keeps the rogue afloat in combat situations and skill mastery is the rogue's one true saving grace.
Only other technique I can think of is some sort of maneuver that fakes an enemy out, causing the enemy to drop its guard, and provoke an attack of opportunity...
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8 months ago ::
Nov 19, 2012 - 2:56PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Dec 21, 2011
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I hope WoTC takes note. Your work fascinates me.
What would happen if you did a simulation of a very short combat that only takes about 4 rounds? Fighter gets to go all out with "at will" and expertise dice...same for rogue and monk. Wizard does 3 "at will spells" and 1 higher damage spell slot. (to conserve spells for many more combats during the day)...Same for Cleric (3 at wills and 1 higher damage spell slot).
Can your math account for comparing melee PCs who have lots of "at will" power (apples) vs. spellcasters who have their power in limited resources (oranges)?
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8 months ago ::
Nov 19, 2012 - 3:12PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Jan 21, 2004
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The rogue can be boosted by bringing back some class features for the schemes perhaps. Granting them a free extra expertise die if they sneak attack in a surprise round might be cool. Maybe each scheme could grant an extra expertise die in certain limited circumstances e.g. acrobat when using spring attack etc.
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8 months ago ::
Nov 19, 2012 - 4:40PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Sep 20, 2004
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I hope WoTC takes note. Your work fascinates me.
What would happen if you did a simulation of a very short combat that only takes about 4 rounds? Fighter gets to go all out with "at will" and expertise dice...same for rogue and monk. Wizard does 3 "at will spells" and 1 higher damage spell slot. (to conserve spells for many more combats during the day)...Same for Cleric (3 at wills and 1 higher damage spell slot).
That isn't a great way to calculate things. In practice, I think a wizard has enough spells to use them far more frequently than once every four rounds. He can probably cast a daily spell as often as once every second round... or more.
Can your math account for comparing melee PCs who have lots of "at will" power (apples) vs. spellcasters who have their power in limited resources (oranges)?
Sort of, yea. First you need to figure out how many rounds you expect a group to go through per day. Then you calculate the damage total for wizards vs. an at-will class. Things are fairly balanced right now for a 16-20 round day (which is about what I expect, to be honest).
So, anyway… a slight nerf to Deadly Strike and a slight boost to Sneak Attack seem to fix things. Would everyone reading this thread be happy with the changes proposed?
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8 months ago ::
Nov 19, 2012 - 5:40PM
#9
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2007
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I've been toying around with the rogue more and more after making that brainstorm class, and I keep looking back at the maneuvers. I'd probably like them more if there were specific maneuvers for each class, with no overlap.
Now, I've believed from the start that rogues should have the lowest damage by default, but when attacking with advanatge, it should be the highest, especially given the lower weapon attack, to reinforce their ability to be deadly when they get the drop on the enemy.
In terms of progressions and whatnot, I would prefer the rogue to start with 2d6 SA and have it increase by 1d6 at 3rd, 5th, and so on. If maneuvers stay, I'd keep them seperate and start with 1d4, then increase by 1d4 at 4th, 7th, and 10th. Unfortunately, I get stuck here because I feel rogue maneuvers would be cooler if they keyed off SA (either sacrificing a few SA dice to get a status effect or increasing it to d8's if both advantage attacks hit, which I think would be a good idea, or adding the maneuver dice instead of boosting the dice). Incorporating a status effect might be tough with maneuvers, so maybe they could be seperated into another tree of abilities.
Oftentimes when I see maneuvers, I think of defensive options. Ways of getting advantage more often or more easily. Hmm...what if there was a maneuver that boosted AC on an OA and provided advantage on a miss? Maybe that would be viable, but like I said, I'm having trouble using the maneuver dice. I think "ally within reach" is kind of a SA cop-out, but if more methods were put in for the rogue to gain advantage, it might create more incentive to keep taking levels in the class instead of dipping into fighter for deadly strike (which I can see happening if things stay as is).
I guess that's what I have for now: Maneuvers to expand the use of SA, maneuvers (or another name) to get advantage more often, that's what I'm getting at. I'll probably think of more.
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8 months ago ::
Nov 19, 2012 - 5:48PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Jun 28, 2006
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Taking the highest damage die would be alot more balanced than what we have right now. Fighters adding 3-30 points of damage to a melee attack is just ridiculous.
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