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7 months ago ::
Nov 19, 2012 - 11:33AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Nov 15, 2007
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I'm a bit worried about the power and versatility of expertise dice and their attendant maneuvers in the context of balancing them vs. magic.
In most editions of D&D, magic and spellcasting has been significantly more powerful than mundane attacks. To balance this out, there have been all sorts of anti-magic and anti-spellcasting features in the rules, ranging from silence spells and anti-magic zones to magic resistance and bad weather (yep, sometimes just rain would ruin your spells). Additionally there have been various groups or entities out there who regulate and/or oppose spellcasting (a guild of mages that prohibits non-scanctioned spellcasting within city limits, for example).
In these cases, it sucks to be a wizard; your abilities are either hindered or all-out nullified. And fighters and rogues would happily fight on, relieved that it is finally their turn to shine.
With the inclusion of the powerful damage and effects that expertise dice can provide I am worried that martial classes will out-perform spellcasters. There are no "anti-martial zones" that nullify fighter abilities, and I've never seen groups or creatures that can somehow detect when you use a martial stunt.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 19, 2012 - 11:37AM
#2
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Date Joined:
May 11, 2006
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Telekinesis? Reverse Gravity? An invisible, flying spellcaster? Archers shooting out of an arrow slit?
There's tons of things that can frustrate punchy brute types and their fancy, shmancy maneuvers.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 19, 2012 - 11:41AM
#3
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All the anti-spell stuff is because spell casters where not balanced.
You can loose most of that now.
guides
Show
my builds
Show
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 19, 2012 - 11:57AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Nov 15, 2007
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All the anti-spell stuff is because spell casters where not balanced. You can loose most of that now.
It's already enshrined in the rules: Many creatures have advantage on saving throws vs. magic (magic resistance) and in certain campaigns (fighting drow, or demons/devils) you are guaranteed to go up against foes which almost always have this trait. Add on top of that the ease of ruining spellcasting (e.g. verbal components — once again silence, a simple 2nd level cleric spell can negate almost every spell).
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7 months ago ::
Nov 19, 2012 - 12:00PM
#5
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All the anti-spell stuff is because spell casters where not balanced. You can loose most of that now.
It's already enshrined in the rules: Many creatures have advantage on saving throws vs. magic (magic resistance) and in certain campaigns (fighting drow, or demons/devils) you are guaranteed to go up against foes which almost always have this trait. Add on top of that the ease of ruining spellcasting (e.g. verbal components — once again silence, a simple 2nd level cleric spell can negate almost every spell).
And it's easy enough to have a creature with high AC, giving fighters the same negitive.
Or disarm someone, stopping their damage.
guides
Show
my builds
Show
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 19, 2012 - 12:23PM
#6
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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With the inclusion of the powerful damage and effects that expertise dice can provide I am worried that martial classes will out-perform spellcasters. There are no "anti-martial zones" that nullify fighter abilities
Rust monsters
Flying creatures w/protection from normal missiles
A chasm
Webs
Combat through a grate
Etherealness
It's trivially easy to make an encounter to nullify or at least hamper most martial abilities. Don't worry about it.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 19, 2012 - 12:26PM
#7
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Furthermore, Damage Resistance is currently in the playtest rules.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 19, 2012 - 12:37PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Nov 15, 2007
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With the inclusion of the powerful damage and effects that expertise dice can provide I am worried that martial classes will out-perform spellcasters. There are no "anti-martial zones" that nullify fighter abilities
Rust monsters
Flying creatures w/protection from normal missiles
A chasm
Webs
Combat through a grate
Etherealness
It's trivially easy to make an encounter to nullify or at least hamper most martial abilities. Don't worry about it.
Expertise dice can counter or alleviate many of these. Depending on what maneuvers you have, you can spend them to get advantage with saving throws vs spells (web), vault over a chasm, counteract the disadvantage of attacking through a gate, etc.
There doesn't seem to be a simple "you can't do maneuvers or spend expertise dice in this room" effect. But you can cast silence and prevent just about all spellcasting.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 19, 2012 - 1:07PM
#9
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There doesn't seem to be a simple "you can't do maneuvers or spend expertise dice in this room" effect. But you can cast silence and prevent just about all spellcasting.
Which means there's something wrong with spellcasting, not expertise dice.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 19, 2012 - 1:19PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2001
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I'm a bit worried about the power and versatility of expertise dice and their attendant maneuvers in the context of balancing them vs. magic.
In most editions of D&D, magic and spellcasting has been significantly more powerful than mundane attacks.
True. The intended balancing factor was that each spell could be cast only once.
To balance this out, there have been all sorts of anti-magic and anti-spellcasting features in the rules, ranging from silence spells and anti-magic zones to magic resistance and bad weather (yep, sometimes just rain would ruin your spells).
Nah, the arbitrary scewing in classic D&D was in no way limitted to casters. Monsters hit only by magic weapons, rust monsters that ate your magic weapons, Protection from Normal Missles, Flying enemies, Invisible enemies, flying invisible enemies with Protection from Normal Missles who could be hit only by magic weapons....
With the inclusion of the powerful damage and effects that expertise dice can provide I am worried that martial classes will out-perform spellcasters.
Your concern is noted. Laughable, but noted. Look, ED are just a progressive damage mechanic. As casters get higher level spells, they also get more damage. Non-casters can give up their extra damage to do some cute little tricks, casters' spell have tremendous versatility at all levels. The casters' top level spells are clearly their most important (just as in 3.5, when only you best spells had the highest DCs), but their lower level spells handily correspond to the non-casters option of giving up damage for versatility, the versatility of spells is just far greater than that of maneuvers.
Don't worry, casters are still superior.
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? Join the Old Guard of 4e"You want The Tooth? You can't handle The Tooth!" - Dahlver-Nar. "If magic is unrestrained in the campaign, D&D quickly degenerates into a weird wizard show where players get bored quickly" - E. Gary Gygax
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