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7 months ago ::
Nov 23, 2012 - 3:54PM
#61
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Combat requires the most rules; you can explore without touching a die, and mechanics just get in the way of roleplaying. It gets more attention because it needs to be the most balanced part of the game, and is the most intricate.
While there should be some rules to support exploration and interaction encounters (you roleplay in all aspects of the game, or none, as you and your table desire) combat has the highest demand for rules.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 23, 2012 - 4:31PM
#62
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It might be argued that if math were provided for other areas, those other areas might see more use.
Apparently you missed something.
There was this thing called Dungeons and Dragons Fourth Edition. It had tons of cool math and rules for non combat.
You are just Trolling us, right? 
Pro DnD Member of the Axis of Awesome Fighters: Using socks to kill monsters since 2012 DnD Next: Now with more then 4 minutes of Roleplay per gaming hour Spoiler:
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"If you can't make an interesting human fighter, then you aren't ready to play anything else yet" Edymnion
"The idea of resting up between encounters to fill-up on hit points and spells struck my meta-gaming nine-year-old as a distinct possibility. "Are you mad?" says my seven-year-old "This place is full of monsters!" "jamesgrahamuk
All characters have a story. Spoiler:
Show
Sometimes that story is short and sometimes it is long. They can be tragic, comic or absurd. Some teach. Some are just to fill the empty spaces in our lives. Rarely it is a transcendent fugue only half remembered but wondered at. And frequently: "it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." -William Shakespeare
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7 months ago ::
Nov 23, 2012 - 4:51PM
#63
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It might be argued that if math were provided for other areas, those other areas might see more use.
Apparently you missed something.
There was this thing called Dungeons and Dragons Fourth Edition. It had tons of cool math and rules for non combat.
You are just Trolling us, right?
Well the cool part is subjective, it did however have tons of rules and guidelines for non-combat stuff. The DMGs had lots of non-combat guidelines. Darksun themes mechanic laid down the ground work for many non-combat features. The majority of the 100+ skills powers in PHB3 are for non-combat and many of the ones that are combat related could be used out of combat. Many more got added in later settings books.
 | Big Model: Creative Agenda
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? join the Old Guard of 4th Edition
Reality Refracted: Social Contracts
D & D: A Documentary Kickstarter (http://kck.st/SyKNzf)
Dreaming the Impossible Dream
Show
Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table. -Mearl |
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7 months ago ::
Nov 23, 2012 - 5:06PM
#64
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It might be argued that if math were provided for other areas, those other areas might see more use.
Apparently you missed something.
There was this thing called Dungeons and Dragons Fourth Edition. It had tons of cool math and rules for non combat.
You are just Trolling us, right?
Well the cool part is subjective, it did however have tons of rules and guidelines for non-combat stuff. The DMGs had lots of non-combat guidelines. Darksun themes mechanic laid down the ground work for many non-combat features. The majority of the 100+ skills powers in PHB3 are for non-combat and many of the ones that are combat related could be used out of combat. Many more got added in later settings books.
Non-combat powers? I guess that sums up the cool DnD 4e rules for non-combat. 
Pro DnD Member of the Axis of Awesome Fighters: Using socks to kill monsters since 2012 DnD Next: Now with more then 4 minutes of Roleplay per gaming hour Spoiler:
Show
"If you can't make an interesting human fighter, then you aren't ready to play anything else yet" Edymnion
"The idea of resting up between encounters to fill-up on hit points and spells struck my meta-gaming nine-year-old as a distinct possibility. "Are you mad?" says my seven-year-old "This place is full of monsters!" "jamesgrahamuk
All characters have a story. Spoiler:
Show
Sometimes that story is short and sometimes it is long. They can be tragic, comic or absurd. Some teach. Some are just to fill the empty spaces in our lives. Rarely it is a transcendent fugue only half remembered but wondered at. And frequently: "it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." -William Shakespeare
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7 months ago ::
Nov 23, 2012 - 5:31PM
#65
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Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2001
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My 2 cents:
All roleplaying systems are defined by
1: The character classes provided (abilities and goals all combat based with a smidgeon of 'overspecialized-skills'?)
2: The Scenarios presented
If all you have are combat classes and all of the scenarios are miniatures wargame march-around-and-kill-and-loot scenarios, then that's what we get. Next, you still get xp for killing monsters instead of meeting goals. All I can say is what the heck? Really? Is this 1974?
Real innovation occurs when the game system gives the DM scenario design TOOLS and consequence TOOLS on how to do stuff outside of combat and what the benefit is to players. Also, since D&D is the "entry level game" it needs to be presented as to how a DM can do this for a generation of younger gamers who may only conceive of looting and killing.
No play style is [possibly] wrong, but shoehorning D&D back into a kill it and take its stuff, ONE-CHOICE approach doesn't help our hobby compete against computer games (which do it better and faster and in a more colorful way..and cannot be competed against in this regards imho). Roleplaying is the only thing that D&D can compete against the 'computer' games..and it's not in the form of trying to be a like-computer-effect type of game. I think that's what they figured out with 5E, but IMHO they're still stuck trying to RULE social combats and RULE social interactions. Creating rules for that stuff for players to attempt to min-max doesn't help. It's got to be presented to players in a way that they can use considering fun-promoting consequences that don't involve hit points that can be healed with a gulp and a burp: They need to be asking themselves : 1) what is the major plot, 2) who are the major players/NPCs and what are they up to, 3) how can we overcome the major obstacles using a mix of combat, diplomacy, subterfuge, and getting dirty, 4) How is this fun to do using a multitude of approaches knowing that combat may frequently be our WORST option?
Since we are yet again thrust into the "one mode" approach of solving problems, because it is the only method taught to DMs and the only approach encouraged of PC's, that's what we get..and I wish D&D would figure this out becuase I really would like my group to buy back into this system.
[edit] Regarding "non combat powers", if these can be made "vague" in major categories, this is better. More focused will be the problem. More "skills" is not the answer so much as possibly encouraging a "bonus" for major categories of approaches to solve a problem (just thinking off the top of my head): Subterfuge activities, Diplomatic Activities (not just a single skill check or series), Thinkiing outside the box (or somethign like that) so the Dm and the player have to imagine in their heads how to create that 'solution.' Then ..it can play out using the nitty gritty and the specific.
Great comments so far everyone!
..
Gamer Chiropractor - Hafner Chiropractic 305 S. Kipling st,Suite C-2, Lakewood, Co 80226 www.hafnerchiropractic.com
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7 months ago ::
Nov 23, 2012 - 5:33PM
#66
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2011
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It might be argued that if math were provided for other areas, those other areas might see more use.
Apparently you missed something.
There was this thing called Dungeons and Dragons Fourth Edition. It had tons of cool math and rules for non combat.
You are just Trolling us, right?
Well the cool part is subjective, it did however have tons of rules and guidelines for non-combat stuff. The DMGs had lots of non-combat guidelines. Darksun themes mechanic laid down the ground work for many non-combat features. The majority of the 100+ skills powers in PHB3 are for non-combat and many of the ones that are combat related could be used out of combat. Many more got added in later settings books.
Non-combat powers? I guess that sums up the cool DnD 4e rules for non-combat.
It helps to read the whole post.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 23, 2012 - 5:43PM
#67
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Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2001
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To just make one more thought on my recent post:
I love combats, but I also love solving a problem by simply collapsing the cave that the Ogre is standing in using bribed labor from the local baron who owes us a favor for spreading good word about him around town.
Perhaps de-specializing some of the skills helps when they don't come down to a single roll and asking ourselves, "could this system handle other types of play" for example, can it do "smallville?" "sneaky thieves campaign with very little killing?" etc.
Anyways..I just used 4 cents. I get a penny back.
Gamer Chiropractor - Hafner Chiropractic 305 S. Kipling st,Suite C-2, Lakewood, Co 80226 www.hafnerchiropractic.com
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7 months ago ::
Nov 23, 2012 - 7:34PM
#68
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Date Joined:
Jan 10, 2012
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The problem, you are attaching a background to a class, a class in my opinion should be a set of abilities and mechanics, not identity...What happend when you like how a class is from the mechanical point of view, but you don't like to be forced into it's background?
Exactly right. If nothing else, re-naming and re-fluffing the background should be a piece of cake, because the only flavor that matters is the flavor the player gives his character.
I take fluff more seriously in my games.
I think the flavour of the campaign is just as important as anything the player does. In addition, role playing parameters are not fluff. If a campaign theme requires the character to do X and has Y consequences then there isn't anything the player can do about it. Sure he can take the outlaw theme/background for the mechanics alone, but he can't be upset with the system when his character is arrested and tossed in the dungeons. In fact, that is unavoidable fluff that could actually result in a public execution.
I agree to a degree. If the Outlaw background was the only one with the specific mechanics that the player wanted, but that player came up with a reasonable alternative background that would have access to the same mechanics and better fit the PC concept, I'd allow the creation of the new background. I wouldn't force that player to be an Outlaw. However, once the fluff for the PC has been chosen, it's in play for better or for worse.
Yes I agree with that as well. hopefully themes and backgrounds will be very simple to create and modify.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 23, 2012 - 9:43PM
#69
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It might be argued that if math were provided for other areas, those other areas might see more use.
Apparently you missed something.
There was this thing called Dungeons and Dragons Fourth Edition. It had tons of cool math and rules for non combat.
You are just Trolling us, right?
Well the cool part is subjective, it did however have tons of rules and guidelines for non-combat stuff. The DMGs had lots of non-combat guidelines. Darksun themes mechanic laid down the ground work for many non-combat features. The majority of the 100+ skills powers in PHB3 are for non-combat and many of the ones that are combat related could be used out of combat. Many more got added in later settings books.
Non-combat powers? I guess that sums up the cool DnD 4e rules for non-combat.
I don't think sum mean what you think it does...
| Big Model: Creative Agenda
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? join the Old Guard of 4th Edition
Reality Refracted: Social Contracts
D & D: A Documentary Kickstarter (http://kck.st/SyKNzf)
Dreaming the Impossible Dream
Show
Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table. -Mearl |
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7 months ago ::
Nov 23, 2012 - 9:55PM
#70
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I don't think sum mean what you think it does...
Thats true - it appears that there are a lot of terms that appear to have different meanings then you would expect.
Pro DnD Member of the Axis of Awesome Fighters: Using socks to kill monsters since 2012 DnD Next: Now with more then 4 minutes of Roleplay per gaming hour Spoiler:
Show
"If you can't make an interesting human fighter, then you aren't ready to play anything else yet" Edymnion
"The idea of resting up between encounters to fill-up on hit points and spells struck my meta-gaming nine-year-old as a distinct possibility. "Are you mad?" says my seven-year-old "This place is full of monsters!" "jamesgrahamuk
All characters have a story. Spoiler:
Show
Sometimes that story is short and sometimes it is long. They can be tragic, comic or absurd. Some teach. Some are just to fill the empty spaces in our lives. Rarely it is a transcendent fugue only half remembered but wondered at. And frequently: "it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." -William Shakespeare
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