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Nov 18, 2012 -- 9:56AM, Crimson_Concerto wrote:

 Yes, that's what I've said. I've met many experienced gamers who take issue with it for thinking that it's bad for immersion or simulation, but I've not met a single newer player that thinks it's any worse than daily spells on a caster. "If I know how to cast a spell, then why can't I just cast it whenever I want?" they might ask. Whatever logical answers you can come up with for that pretty much work just as well for martial abilities. If you really think about it, I think you'll find that the underlying root of your objection that it's just a large departure from how you're used to seeing martial combat mechanically represented.

I have finished enough of a pure Atwill magic tradition to set a 1^st level character. I can answer that question to a new player. I've also doctored on a pure vancian class. Explaining vancian magic to new players is easy though I agree that if you give a newb a vancian mage and a fighter with encounter powers they are more likely to question vancian magic.  

And how do you reconcile this view with a lack of issue with spells being daily? What is at all realistic about that, especially when you compare it to most forms of magic in media and literature? It's not like it's hard to imagine a character that can cast Sleep at-will. But just as it's not difficult to imagine a caster that runs out of magical energy quickly and finds it too difficult to concentrate after, it's not difficult to imaging a martial character that has low endurance or only knows a few reliable tricks that the enemy catches onto quickly enough to make the fighting style ineffective.

I dont need to reconcile it. I see no reason to entertain the workings of magic while talking about martial maneuvers. I do offer a pure atwill class and a pure vancian class. I can make a much better case to the players for those traditions than the current please-everyone hodgepodge. 

I simply dont buy this idea that something can only be used once a fight to the extent that it would be more efficient to write it in the rules as such. The only exceptions are powers for the entire party and even those might be better as utility powers. The further removed a maneuver is from one single action the more mechanical the game becomes. An example is giving a basketball player in a video game a dunk maneuver. Once a game they can dunk on anyone. Poor game design. Better to give them superior ball handling, leaping, and the ability to inspire with dunks. Let them put the package together themselves as natural as possible. Most encounter powers bring a complex feat from start to finish in the same way a dunk feat would. While on the rant- Its comes off as lazy game design. Its time consuming to define a maneuver that has multiple factors. Its easy to give out something with uncanny power and usage limits."        

@Garthanos

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I don't understand what makes Encounter powers less boring. You describe it as a tempo change, but to me its like every song gets the same intro. AT-Wills were more or less the same, and the only mechanic that disrupted the flow of the average combat vs. the special one was daily powers. 

I could undestand perhaps if you could get 4 powers wrapped up into one encounter power so that each combat I make a tactical decision which power fits this encounter. That would make encounter powers feel unique and not mundane.

My biggest problem with encounter powers is that in most situations they actually take the combat decisions away from the player and give it to the system. If I get 6 powers, and one of them is twice as good as the rest, then I am always going to use it, it no longer becomes something special, it becomes a mindless and obvious decision.

I also disagree with the tempo analogy you made. XD represent the first time tempo can change, I have no idea what I am going to do as a fighter until I see how things occur inbetween my turns. Admitedly this is minor at low level, but once you get 3 dice, you will have combats where have a hige amount of power to change the tempo from highly aggresive to highly defensive, but becuase these decisions are balanced and buillt into a gamble mechanic its way more exciting then to win and be successful with them, because you made tactical decisons to achieve high performance.

Nov 18, 2012 -- 12:42PM, zago wrote:

@Garthanos

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I don't understand what makes Encounter powers less boring. You describe it as a tempo change, but to me its like every song gets the same intro. AT-Wills were more or less the same, and the only mechanic that disrupted the flow of the average combat vs. the special one was daily powers. 

I could undestand perhaps if you could get 4 powers wrapped up into one encounter power so that each combat I make a tactical decision which power fits this encounter. That would make encounter powers feel unique and not mundane.

I dont want all encounter powers to be a first action choice either I would like some of them to work better deeper in to the fight for instance and I would like the highlighted idea of what you mentioned as I have suggested it myself. But either way its still encounter powers, subtly different implementation can have good effects we dont have them at all as it stands.

Nov 18, 2012 -- 12:42PM, zago wrote:

I also disagree with the tempo analogy you made.  

The tempo/pitch analogy is only an anology of course. Tempo is actually varied by the potency/impact of those abilities a defensive encounter power having higher allowed impact is still making a higher variance peaks and vallies. The analogy is one of having another factor by which the action is varied ie the music is richer. I can tap the cymbol again and again or tap a different cymbol or I can make a big hit on the cymbol... the big hit breaks things up within the fight itself, it doesnt make it different than other fights, its a given round having a different amount of pop based on something other than fluke die rolls.

I also feel the lack of action points which also contributed to the crescendo.. 
 

Nov 18, 2012 -- 1:11PM, Rory wrote:

There is nothing I can think of that should leave a character so physically exerted that they need to rest before doing again reguardless of con. Its only six seconds.

So you've read some books, watched some movies, played some games, and now you think you know how it feels to be an adventurer?

Hike through the woods for half a day. Climb upa a cliff face. Then finally encounter some bandits. Get hit in the shoulder with an arrow. Parry a sword slash. It's finally you turn. Do a whirldwind attack. Dodge a fireball. Get shot again. Parry another sword slash. Now try that whirldwind attac again.

Characters in fiction who have "moves" almost universally treat them as though they were encounter or daily powers, even if there's no particular reason for that to be the case. It's like a narrative thing. I don't expect that to mean a whole to to most people (it doesn't mean a whole lot to me), but it's something to think about. (They also tend to build up to using their most impressive abilities, something that does not happen in 4e. The fact that in tabletop games frontloading impact is more effective means that characters tend to use their splashiest moves first.)