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Dungeons & Dra.. Player Playtest Se.. What mechanics would honestly make you not buy 5E?
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Switch to Forum Live View What mechanics would honestly make you not buy 5E?
7 months ago  ::  Nov 29, 2012 - 6:47AM #21
nukunuku
Date Joined: Dec 21, 2007
Posts: 349

Ellyh:  Love the avatar.    In all seriousness, I came to this thread and I was like - WHOA!  Did I already post somehow in my sleep or something?  



OP:  What I hear you saying in most of your "red flag" list is that you don't like how skills are being handled.  I think you might be looking at things in a little too much detail.


There is honestly no single mechanic that will cause me not to buy 5.0.  That's because I know how D&D works in real life:  you houserule the crap out of whatever you don't like.    Let's say rogues never got sneak attack or something silly like that in the final product.  Who cares?  I'm just going to fix it for my own games and keep going.  In that respect, no one thing is going to make me "ragequit."


Now, I'm not saying that I will buy 5.0 no matter what.  Certainly if some systems are so effed up that I cannot reasonably work around them, then it's a wash.  Right now, I agree with you that the entire skill system is broken beyond tweaking.  It would take way too much effort for me to repair the entire system, so if this were the final product, I would not buy it.


What I mean in my first sentence is:  don't let a single detail drag you down.  "Use rope?"  Just ignore it (I sure have).  That's not a dealbreaker.  Even Vancian magic (*shakes fist*) isnt' a dealbreaker for me, so long as they give me the option to play another way.  If it's the only possible way to cast magic - then yeah, that's a dealbreaker.  What really matters are the systems, holistically - not the details.



Also, love The Tick.  

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7 months ago  ::  Nov 30, 2012 - 7:13PM #22
Amoren
Date Joined: Nov 25, 2009
Posts: 23
Rage Quit
Sneak Attack in its current implimtation ('nough said).  Just bring back the previous version of Sneak Attack and divorce it from the expertise system, please.

Annoyed
Two-Weapon Fighting Rules (might be better once whatever TWF feat specilization they're thinking of comes out).  Specifically, as it stands, you can never sneak attack with Two-Weapon Fighting (unless you were "flanking").
Humans.  We can do everything better than you can, we can do everything better than you.  (Seriously though, when a human rogue can have a higher dexterity than a halfling or elf rogue, in addition to plus +1 to everything else, something is wrong.)

Iffy
Rogues having the same hit points as wizards (I can see an argument for it, and honestly, don't mind that much so long as rogues have options to avoid damage to make up for it).
Non-Customizable Magic Items: Flexible item creation gives you a lot more options for loot and diversity in magic items, and it can be prevented from becoming customizable outfitting like 3.5 with strict magic item creation rules for players.

Try to guess what archetype I like and hunger for the most? :P

On the Flip Side...
I love the Word of Power spell system, as it stands for clerics at least.  The warbringer dorf cleric I played was awesome, casting bless and healing spells and still smacking things with its axe.  I think its a nice system for creating a combat cleric now that it can't stack buffs to make it more powerful than the fighter.
Expertise is also a nice system, in theory.  Just needs to have the kinks and idiocracies ironed out (seriously, Warriors start with a choice of maneuver and deadly strike for free, rogues had to use their only first level maneuver for their damage mechanic!?  How the heck did that pass whatever internal testing they use?)
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7 months ago  ::  Dec 03, 2012 - 9:41AM #23
Sifaka
Date Joined: Jun 6, 2012
Posts: 199

The biggest piece of feedback we received was that the rogue came across as a lame fighter. This was a key test to see how much tolerance people have for varied combat strength across classes. There's some give, but it looks like people want to avoid dramatic differences.

Mike Mearls - Legends & Lore Archive | 12/3/2012
 




If this is taken too far and the classes all look and feel to similar I would continue to use older books and skip this edition;  with that said, there is still a lot of development left to go and so far I have very much enjoyed the playtest.  I hope that 5e is a system that I will enjoy playing for some time.





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7 months ago  ::  Dec 03, 2012 - 4:33PM #24
bothornback
Date Joined: Mar 20, 2012
Posts: 14
I haven't played 4th edition, was waiting for a video game to come out like neverwinter or something to try it, but I have played some of 3.5. Most of what I play is a mix between 1st and 2nd and one of the things I like about it is the maxes. While there is no limits on level or how powerful a character could get in game there are maxes on stats, ac, etc and I like that. In 3.5 starting a character with a 30 str and +10 to hit and only going up from there isn't something I am fond of. I would like to see some maxes on stats, ac, etc in 5E. Could have str max for size, ie huge can have more str than a Med. Otherwise you are designing monsters to hit the guy with a 78 ac every-now-and-then and wasting the rest of the group. 

2nd ed allowed characters to get to -10 ac. monsters could surpass that, yet characters could have a 24 strength and be stronger than a dragon, that also isn't good. 
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7 months ago  ::  Dec 04, 2012 - 6:28AM #25
Tim_the_Enchanter68
Date Joined: May 6, 2007
Posts: 105
My main concern is that the system remain flexible enough to house-rule to my liking, since they will inevitably do (and have already done) things I don't agree with.
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7 months ago  ::  Dec 05, 2012 - 6:26PM #26
FallingIcicle
Date Joined: Jun 28, 2006
Posts: 1,055
While any one of the following wouldn't be enough to make me "RAGEQUIT", I would if 5e included enough of them.

* Totally unbalanced classes, and/or classes being "balanced" across pillars (i.e. fighters being allowed to dominate combat because they totally suck in the social and exploration pillars).

* Alignment restrcitions/mechanics. Alignment as anything but totally, 100% optional fluff.
 
* Humans getting +1 to all ability scores.

* Rolling for hit points. I don't care how "traditional" it is. It was stupid 4 decades ago and it's still stupid now.

* Hit points starting with single digits at level 1, making me avoid playing before level 3 at the earliest, as I had to in the past.

* Excessive HP and damage bloat. For the same reasons Bounded Accuracy is good for the game, so too is bounded damage and HP.

* Expertise Dice being used as the equivalent of BAB progression. 

* Ability modifiers, particularly Strength, not adding to damage.

* Anything resembling the 3.x skill list. If spot and listen, or move silently and hide are separate skills (instead of Perception and Stealth), or if there's a Use Rope skill, I will be very displeased.

* Players not being able to choose any of their skills, either because they're all chosen for you by your background, and/or you never gain any more from leveling, leaving all characters who share a background with the exact same skills.

* Monsters that are difficult to design or manage as the DM, particularly those with spell lists that force me to look up spells in the PHB to be able to use the monster effectively. Or, monsters that are boring blocks of stats without special abilities. Basically, if they throw away all of the amazing progress they made with monsters in 4e.
 
* Cantrips not being at-will. After 4e and Pathinder, I've come to take this for granted.

* Spells that have HP thresholds, as we saw in the first two playtest packets.
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7 months ago  ::  Dec 06, 2012 - 3:28PM #27
CVB
Date Joined: Aug 11, 2006
Posts: 900
"Vancian" Magic is the top of my list.  And sadly, it's not ever going away. 
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7 months ago  ::  Dec 08, 2012 - 5:09PM #28
Otherworldly
Date Joined: Jan 9, 2012
Posts: 93
Major turn-offs

Bond accuracy - please for the love of god, no, just NO.

Expertise dice - really the designers couldn't come up with anything better. 

Specialties and backgrounds - Just allow free from feat and skill selection. Give suggested feat paths in the DM's guide if you have too, but just assume most people like feats/skills and want to choose them freely.

Too few feats - One at first and then one at every even level thereafter feels about right.

Every class/character feeling the same - Everyone's using vancian magic or expertise dice, come on mix it up, give us creative options. Heck I liked the idea of different sub systems being related to your class choice, could we go back to that.

Non-combat skills feats spells and especially class abilities - Give fighters and all classes abilities that relate to exploration and interaction.

Advantage/disadvantage - I actually don't mind the idea, but include a more specific and advanced system for people like myself, and give it equal support.

Action resolution - A specific action system, please again add more options. Combat doesn't have to be so fast, I like more then one action on my turn.

Humans - As they are currently written.

Fat halflings - I prefer them athletic.

Alignment system - Easy fix include non-aligned as an option, and make alignment a allegiance of sorts and completely optional.

Hit dice - just use some kind of second wind system.

Hit points - up everyone's hit points per level, wizard's stay at d6's, fighters move to d12's, clerics d10's and rogues d8's.

Strength and dexterity attack bonus - You want a better accuracy system give only half the bonus from high strength or dexterity adding to attack rolls, in other words a 18 in strength equals a +4 to damage but only a +2 to hit.

Ability scores caped at 20 - I want my character to feel more heroic at higher levels.

Better weapons and armor - More robust system, I like 3e weapon system in regards to critical hits and 4e system in that all weapons had special maneuvers tied to them and got a attack bonus.
 
Mostly everything, really.
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7 months ago  ::  Dec 08, 2012 - 6:29PM #29
Bunz
Date Joined: Dec 8, 2012
Posts: 1
I've only given it a quick scan so far, but there is one complete killer for me so far.
  • Reversion to the (IMO) retarded though traditional for D&D spell casting mechanic of memorising spells and forgetting them when they are cast. ie. Vancian magic. I rejoyced when I saw the way magic is handled in 4E.

I do, however, concur with many of the things mentioned in previous posts.
  • Capped ability scores.
  • Spherical halflings.
  • Alignment mechanics.
  • Too few feats.
  • Homogeneousness of classes.


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7 months ago  ::  Dec 09, 2012 - 12:22PM #30
Slimbokid
Date Joined: Jul 24, 2012
Posts: 8

Nov 16, 2012 -- 8:00PM, Saelorn wrote:

RAGEQUIT: Advantage/Disadvantage is basically a giant flag saying "we don't care".  The math doesn't work out, and promotes counter-intuitive gameplay.

Nitpick: Quadratic progression of expertise dice.  Getting more dice and bigger dice creates an incredibly erratic (who rolls 3d10 for damage?) discrepancy between people who can and cannot fight.


WHAT?! I demand an explanation. If there's one thing I liked MOST about 5.0 its the Advantage/Disadvantage rules... its quick, (assuming you throw both at the same time.) and completely removes the boring and arbitrary minuses and pluses DM's throw at challenges. It also reduces the amount of finger-counting arithmatic. Flavor-wise it CLEARLY feels like an advantage/disadvantage! What makes you say it's counter-intuitive???

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