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7 months ago ::
Nov 16, 2012 - 8:53AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Sep 20, 2004
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The class is flavorful and neat. Unlike the rogue, it is far more than just a "weaker fighter." I like it a lot! However, I worry about the parity of the fighter vs. any other martial character. The fighter's extra attack is just that strong! In order to keep things balanced monks will probably have to get a flat once-per turn damage boost at every level that a fighter gets an extra attack. That, or allow them to use "Flurry of Blows" once per turn without having to spend an expertise die (but they still roll one of their expertise dice worth of damage) each time a fighter gets an extra attack.
In any case, whatever it gets, it can't be as good as a fighter's extra attack. FoB is better than deadly strike, and the monk can get deadly strike. Meanwhile, with a high enough Dex+Wis Combo, the monk has the potential to have the best AC we have seen to date. It needs to have a maximised Dex and a Wis of 16+ to achieve that. So, its unlikely to happen until higher levels, but still... the monk still has all of its other neat features. What is required is a slight tweak. Anything to drastic and I think the monk would overshadow the fighter.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 16, 2012 - 1:21PM
#2
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Dave, did you just say that the fighter oveshadows the monk in one paragraph, and that the monk could overshadow the fighter in the next? I think you're worrying about damage totals when the class is still in its conceptual state. Take a look at Surrealistik's ki system. That could enhance the monk's potential in the game, whether or not the monk compares in terms of raw damage.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 16, 2012 - 10:14PM
#3
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The class is flavorful and neat. Unlike the rogue, it is far more than just a "weaker fighter." I like it a lot! However, I worry about the parity of the fighter vs. any other martial character. The fighter's extra attack is just that strong! In order to keep things balanced monks will probably have to get a flat once-per turn damage boost at every level that a fighter gets an extra attack. That, or allow them to use "Flurry of Blows" once per turn without having to spend an expertise die (but they still roll one of their expertise dice worth of damage) each time a fighter gets an extra attack.
In any case, whatever it gets, it can't be as good as a fighter's extra attack. FoB is better than deadly strike, and the monk can get deadly strike. Meanwhile, with a high enough Dex+Wis Combo, the monk has the potential to have the best AC we have seen to date. It needs to have a maximised Dex and a Wis of 16+ to achieve that. So, its unlikely to happen until higher levels, but still... the monk still has all of its other neat features. What is required is a slight tweak. Anything to drastic and I think the monk would overshadow the fighter.
How about basing the Monks damage dice on their Wisdom modifier?
Wisdom Damage
Modifier Dice
+0 or less 1d4
+1 1d6
+2 1d8
+3 1d10
+4 1d12
+5 2d6
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7 months ago ::
Nov 17, 2012 - 2:01AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Jul 16, 2003
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Why does it always come to coMplaining about damage being balanced with other classes. Maybe the monk and rouge should do less damage and be happy w other abilities like stealth and knowledges. This game is about more than damage andmaking people feel like the only contribution to a game is killing monsters
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7 months ago ::
Nov 17, 2012 - 3:45AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Apr 21, 2007
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If you read the blog post announcing the monk class, he stated that there was little point in improving the damage die as most of your damage would come from expertise dice anyways. It is true that an increase in your damage die is negligable, even if you are wielding two weapons (i.e. getting double the bonus). The most important things are accuracy and increasing your chance of getting critical hits. critical hits add a TON of damage, and thats the only reason why flurry of blows can help the monk compete with a fighter. However, until you get 3d10 dice, the fighter has a large advantage from levels 6-9 in terms of damage/round. Once you get to level 10 it is almost equal, with the monk doing a few points less damage on average but having more chances to finish off an enemy with low health. I think before you get to level 6, it should be about equal. That being said, I think it would be nice if monks did upgrade to a d10 at level 6 as a consolation prize for the huge power gap. Maybe upgrade it every 3 levels? My only complaint not having experienced monk gameplay yet is they didn't bother to add any monk items to the magic item list.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 17, 2012 - 8:54AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Sep 21, 2010
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Their unarmed attack could equal their highest expertise dice? Or, if they are unarmed, they gain an extra expertise dice whatever size the rest of their dice are, gain their dex bonus to the damage for FoB, but not be able to make non-FoB attacks? Or, maybe give them their STR bonus to FoB damage? Then you have to make the choice between the extra damage or the extra AC?
(Though I still think the fighters extra attack is the problem, and should be changed to something else.)
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7 months ago ::
Nov 17, 2012 - 9:46AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Sep 20, 2004
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So, ignoring people who don't seem to understand basic math, or people whose solution to gaming seems to be "don't look at how the rules work, just play the game, even while you are supposed to be playtesting how the rules work," the monk and the fighter are well balanced until level 6. At level 6 the fighters extra attack makes him overpowered compared to the monk. The monk, however, still contributes in some neat ways. What is needed is some sort of level 6 ability that gives the monk a slight damage boost.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 17, 2012 - 10:21AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Jul 16, 2003
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Its not just ignore it and just play the game. Why is every class having its worth quantified in damage and weather or not it is comparable to the fighter. The fighter should do more damage, when you get adventurers together and bring everyones abilities to the table a fighter should be your trained killer. That is not to say that everyone else should sit back and watch the fighter go to work but when it comes to stealth, investigation, social interactions, obscure knowlege, ect then it lets others shine.
If the fighter does more damage compared to the other classes and everyone wants a fighter then they are going to be very disappointed when their one dimensional party has to do something other than kill someone. How will the fighter get across the 20' wide pool of acid, he cant stride across liquids like a monk or teleport like a wizard will be able to.
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7 months ago ::
Nov 17, 2012 - 10:26AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Oct 16, 2008
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I think I agree with Entrigan in spirit, if not in phrasing.
Monks are doing appreciable damage right now. I don't feel we need to change anything just yet. Perhaps boost them to an unarmed d8 between lv 6 and 10 just so flurry of blows isn't 1 strike d6, 3 strikes d10, a jump that big is a little wonky. As things stand between the fighter and the monk though I'm happy. You may think those immunities are too situational to compare with the fighter's extra attack, but they can be incredibly powerful when brought into play.
Perhaps as the fighter gains more things we may feel the monk needs a small damage boost, but for now I think he fits well in his niche
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7 months ago ::
Nov 17, 2012 - 11:03AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Sep 20, 2004
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There is a difference between complete equality/complete parity, when it comes to damage, and keeping things close enough that people are still playing in the same ballpark. I don't need to see the monk get complete parity with the fighter, in terms of damage. But its damage per round, right now, is not close enough. I posted the exact numbers, with statistical probability and critical hits factored in, in a thread called Monk vs. Fighter (the math). A link can be found in my signature. If the monk got one free use of FoB per turn it would still have a lower DPR than the fighter; I would, however, probably be happy with those numbers (playtesting would be required for me to know for sure). Right now, however, it is unacceptably low. The class looks great! It is not the abject failure that the rogue is. But its DPR is too low compared to the fighters.
And, for the record, fighters are not as bad in non-combat encounters as Entrigan is trying to pass off. They get Mighty Exertion. Mighty Exertion is the exact same thing as the rogue's Skill Expertise, except that it only applies to Strength based checks (whether they are skill checks or not, and whether the fighter is trained in the checks or not). At my last count, there are 6 skills which the power could regularly be used with, plus any Strength checks that are not skill checks. So, let’s not pull the "a fighter needs to do more damage because that is all it does" card. That card is a lie. The fighter is quite capable outside of combat as well. Any time the group needs to make drive checks, ride checks, swim check, climb checks, intimidation checks, or escape artist checks the fighter is as likely to be the go-to character as anyone else. Same is true whenever you just happen to need to break something.
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