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6 months ago ::
Nov 19, 2012 - 2:54PM
#51
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Date Joined:
Jan 21, 2004
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I actually really like that idea, except for that would create another issue between Flurry of Blows and Deadly strike. Currently, I feel Deadly Strike and Flurry of Blows are fairly balanced. Flurry is more accurate do to multiple attacks, but if I land that first blow I can throw all those dice into that single attack.
While the idea you propose is great for balancing Sneak Attack and Dealy Strike, IMO, it probably would make flurry the most powerful... but the monk does need a slight boost...
I think I will throw this out to the math guy, Cyber-Dave seems to be on a roll. He has a thread on Monk vs Fighter damage that I will copy and paste this on with a request for math... 'cause I'm that lazy
Your mileage may vary. Monk attacks are 1d6 blunt damage (although they may go up after level 10 and may gain other damage types through class features presumably) and magical weapons could give fighters an edge in other ways. Balancing the whole thing out class feature against class feature will never be perfect but DPR should not be the be all and end all. Flurry of blows is a slightly more versatile whirlwind attack isn't it? What's stranger is that monks don't have finesse weapons on their class description? Does that mean that their unarmed attacks are based on strength? That can't be right or multi-classing as a rogue would make a monk better at fighting unarmed...
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6 months ago ::
Nov 19, 2012 - 4:28PM
#52
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Date Joined:
Sep 20, 2004
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Ok, so, at first glance I was afraid that it would not work. Then, after doing the Math, it turned out to be a brilliant idea Paul6. I have made another thread on the subject.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 19, 2012 - 9:16PM
#53
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Date Joined:
Oct 16, 2008
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I actually really like that idea, except for that would create another issue between Flurry of Blows and Deadly strike. Currently, I feel Deadly Strike and Flurry of Blows are fairly balanced. Flurry is more accurate do to multiple attacks, but if I land that first blow I can throw all those dice into that single attack.
While the idea you propose is great for balancing Sneak Attack and Dealy Strike, IMO, it probably would make flurry the most powerful... but the monk does need a slight boost...
I think I will throw this out to the math guy, Cyber-Dave seems to be on a roll. He has a thread on Monk vs Fighter damage that I will copy and paste this on with a request for math... 'cause I'm that lazy
Your mileage may vary. Monk attacks are 1d6 blunt damage (although they may go up after level 10 and may gain other damage types through class features presumably) and magical weapons could give fighters an edge in other ways. Balancing the whole thing out class feature against class feature will never be perfect but DPR should not be the be all and end all. Flurry of blows is a slightly more versatile whirlwind attack isn't it? What's stranger is that monks don't have finesse weapons on their class description? Does that mean that their unarmed attacks are based on strength? That can't be right or multi-classing as a rogue would make a monk better at fighting unarmed...
Their fists are considered finesse weapons, it is listed under their "Way of the Fist" ability on pg 10 of the class packet. They also have daggers and quarterstaffs which are finesse melee weapons.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 9:08AM
#54
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Date Joined:
Jun 12, 2012
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Perhaps a good option could be a feat (or some other manner of option) that gives a bump to Exp Die when used with Advantage.
For example: Let's say we had a specialty that gives a feat that says "When you have advantage, double the result of expertise die spent on damage for that attack."
This would mean that Sneak Attack would benefit the most from it. Deadly Strike would too, of course.
What does this mean? It's a good option available for letthing the rouge be combat oriented, with out taking combat options from the fighter.
"Double" may be a bit too generous, but this is a good compromise, I think.
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Secondly, this might just be a problem with Deadly Strike being a little too good. After "Jab" had to be divided up.... maybe DS does too...
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6 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 9:26AM
#55
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Date Joined:
Nov 19, 2012
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Perhaps a good option could be a feat (or some other manner of option) that gives a bump to Exp Die when used with Advantage.
For example: Let's say we had a specialty that gives a feat that says "When you have advantage, double the result of expertise die spent on damage for that attack."
This would mean that Sneak Attack would benefit the most from it. Deadly Strike would too, of course.
Sneak Attack can only be used when that character has the advantage. Deadly Strike doesn't rely on qualifiers for its use.
Sneak attack is underpowered in Next. There is no check or penalty for a fighter with a bow using deadly strike, nor with a melee weapon of any kind. Rogues, however, have to be in concealment or near an ally. Both classes use the same expertise dice. Both classes need to wait ten turns to use these abilities again.
Fighters get to wear heavier armor, where rogues need to be mindful as to how much noise they make and where they stand in combat.
Fighters get access to weapons with better damage ouput than rogues.
I am a fan of restricting sneak attack to one handed weapons, thrown daggers, and simple missile weapons (rogues need to maintain their balance.) I also agree with some of the people posting on here that the dex modifier should be added to the rogue's ED roll on Sneak Attack to provide a small damage boost. Melee sneak attacks should also break concealment since it's hard to hide the tip of that shiny rapier. As far as ranged attacks, it's up to the DM whether the enemies are smart enough to figure out where the rogue is hiding.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 9:55AM
#56
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Date Joined:
May 11, 2006
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Sneak Attack can only be used when that character has the advantage.
Incorrect. Sneak Attack is also usable if an ally is within reach of your target.
This, BTW, is less stringent than previous editions, which required actual flanking rather than being able to stand alongside your tank friend.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 10:03AM
#57
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Date Joined:
Nov 19, 2012
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Sneak Attack can only be used when that character has the advantage.
Incorrect. Sneak Attack is also usable if an ally is within reach of your target.
This, BTW, is less stringent than previous editions, which required actual flanking rather than being able to stand alongside your tank friend.
Then how about this:
When hidden and undetected, a rogue may use Sneak Attack with their ED + Dex Mod as bonus to damage. Melee attacks force the rogue out of hiding; ranged attacks allow enemies to roll a spot check on the trajectory of the projectile.
When adjacent an ally, rogues may use Sneak Attack as an advantage but lose their Dex Mod bonus to damage.
Though I do think Sneak Attack should be used only in cases where the rogue has flanked or is concealed. The halfling can already use Medium characters as cover. Maybe I'll playtest a halfling rogue in the near future...
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6 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 11:46AM
#58
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Date Joined:
Sep 20, 2004
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The thing that really throws fighters out of whack with all of the other martial classes, right now, is their second attack. Sneak Attack is not that much weaker than Deadly Strike. It is boring, and is nothing more than a second class version of Deadly Strike. It uses the same damage pattern as Deadly Strike (which is a big problem that needs to be addressed. Just like Flurry of Blows and Deadly Strike use very different damage patterns, Sneak Attack and Deadly Strike/Flurry of Blows should use very different damage patterns). But the thing that makes fighters hands down trump all the other classes is not Deadly Strike by itself. It is what happens when you couple a mechanic like Deadly Strike with two attacks using the most powerful weapons in the game...
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6 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 12:06PM
#59
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Date Joined:
May 11, 2006
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To be clear: You do not get to add all your XD to both attacks. I just want that out there in case anyone isn't paying close attention.
So really, the second attack is much tamer (unless the fighter is splitting up his XD). But either way, it's one dice pool across two attacks.
BTW, in my proposed rogue alternate currently being tinkered with, they get Sneak Attack free and pick up maneuvers along the same rate as fighters (2nd, 4th, 8th, 10th). Their fighter-equivalent "6th level" upgrade is Backstab: Sneak Attack damage is doubled if the attack has advantage. So not always, but a great spiky upgrade when the opportunity presents itself.
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6 months ago ::
Nov 20, 2012 - 2:11PM
#60
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Date Joined:
Sep 20, 2004
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To be clear: You do not get to add all your XD to both attacks. I just want that out there in case anyone isn't paying close attention.
So really, the second attack is much tamer (unless the fighter is splitting up his XD). But either way, it's one dice pool across two attacks.
BTW, in my proposed rogue alternate currently being tinkered with, they get Sneak Attack free and pick up maneuvers along the same rate as fighters (2nd, 4th, 8th, 10th). Their fighter-equivalent "6th level" upgrade is Backstab: Sneak Attack damage is doubled if the attack has advantage. So not always, but a great spiky upgrade when the opportunity presents itself.
It doesn't matter. The second attack gives you a very big boost to your ability to statistically add your Deadly Strike damage dice. That effectively increases their DPR. All factors combined, at 10th level, assuming an 80% hit rate for a fighter with a 20 in his primary stat (using a greatsword), his DPR will be 38-39. A monk’s (with his fist) will be 25. A rogue's (with a katana, and a 75% hit rate due to their lower class attack bonus) will be 16-17. Those numbers are too far apart to be reasonable.
Merely doubling the damage of a sneak attack when you have advantage does not bring parity to these calculations. At least, not if we assume that you only get advantage about once every 3 or 4 rounds (which seems reasonable given the current rules). Having run the math before, to get the rogue to 79% of the fighter's damage over time (with the above assumptions) a rogue needs to have an ability, at 6th level, that reads something like this: when you have advantage, if you hit a target with both your attack rolls you score a critical hit.
Or, they can tone down Deadly Strike (you only get to add the best roll of any damage dice you spend to any single attack), and then use a smaller boost (something akin to what you proposed, or even something that doesn’t necessarily add to the rogue’s damage directly; for example, I like the idea of targets hit by Sneak Attack granting advantage until the start or end of the rogue’s next turn (depending on what playtesting deems to be more fair).
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