The DM doesn't need to be a spiteful bastard to put an Incantatrix (or almost any other class) in a situation where it is inferior compared to Swiftblade (or almost any other class), the DM just needs to be as smart (or smartest) as the player who is using Incantatrix, Swiftblade, preparation, no-need-to-preparation useful abilities, and so on.
Of course certain classes can cover more of the situations a DM can put against players, mainly spellcasters, that's why they're Tier 1, that's the case of both Incantatrix and Swiftblade, so even if Incantatrix being better than Swiftblade (and i do believe that), it still doesn't outclass Swiftblade completely, that's just non-sense of you.
I'm sorry, but could you clearly present a situation with a moderate chance of occurance in which the Swiftblade's 6/10 casting, crappy prerequisites, full BAB *yay?*, and so-so buffs while hasted are better than the insanity that is the Incantatrix? I feel like a few of these would really help your case.
The DM doesn't need to be a spiteful bastard to put an Incantatrix (or almost any other class) in a situation where it is inferior compared to Swiftblade (or almost any other class), the DM just needs to be as smart (or smartest) as the player who is using Incantatrix, Swiftblade, preparation, no-need-to-preparation useful abilities, and so on.
No. That is wrong. An Incantatrix cannot be caught unprepared unless played by an incompetent player. Rope Trick, Time Stop, MMM, so many easy ways to make sure you get all your buffs done. And if that doesn't work, Teleport and Plane Shift will let you escape to buff up.
An Incantatrix will only EVER be caught buffless is it was just nailed by a disjunction, and it should have several Contingent Spells to prevent this. So, in other words, it should NEVER be caught buffless.
Of course certain classes can cover more of the situations a DM can put against players, mainly spellcasters, that's why they're Tier 1, that's the case of both Incantatrix and Swiftblade, so even if Incantatrix being better than Swiftblade (and i do believe that), it still doesn't outclass Swiftblade completely, that's just non-sense of you.
The Swiftblade has nothing superior to a basic buff routine. Its only toys are mediocre.
Anything a Swiftblade can do, an Incantatrix can do better.
I'm sorry, but could you clearly present a situation with a moderate chance of occurance in which the Swiftblade's 6/10 casting, crappy prerequisites, full BAB *yay?*, and so-so buffs while hasted are better than the insanity that is the Incantatrix? I feel like a few of these would really help your case.
Quite frankly, I'm having trouble seeing anything it can do that is superior to any good wizard PrC. Incantatrix was just what came up.
I am ORCutus of Borg, 3 of 6. Resistance... is futile. Your life as it has been... is over. From this time forward... you will service... us.
Play gestalt, take Swiftblade on a side, smash the game with Innervated Speed and Perpetual Options? Granted, this could be achieved with Factotum too, except Factotum isn't quite as sustainable for one fight.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Play gestalt, take Swiftblade on a side, smash the game with Innervated Speed and Perpetual Options? Granted, this could be achieved with Factotum too, except Factotum isn't quite as sustainable for one fight.
Uh, no. Gestalt prevents the taking of more than one PrC at any given time, so you're still giving up a lot, plus you still have to meet the garbage prereqs.
It doesn't improve enough in Gestalt rules to make it worth it, because, yanno, it's still a garbage class.
I am ORCutus of Borg, 3 of 6. Resistance... is futile. Your life as it has been... is over. From this time forward... you will service... us.
Except that it's not a garbage class. It's poo compared to a full caster, but for a Gish it's pretty good.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice
"My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan
This user has been brought to you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Buttler of the House of Trolls
Play gestalt, take Swiftblade on a side, smash the game with Innervated Speed and Perpetual Options? Granted, this could be achieved with Factotum too, except Factotum isn't quite as sustainable for one fight.
Uh, no. Gestalt prevents the taking of more than one PrC at any given time, so you're still giving up a lot, plus you still have to meet the garbage prereqs.
It doesn't improve enough in Gestalt rules to make it worth it, because, yanno, it's still a garbage class.
Yeah, like Draco said, you've got loony ideas, brother. Action advantage is god, and gestalt completely eliminates the usual problems (since you could just progress another fullcaster side while you're raising swiftblade and get level 9 spells anyways). Past a certain point, you don't need more choices for what to do with your actions per round, you just straight up need more actions per round. Gestalt lets you hit that point very, very early, making Swiftblade outstanding. Pit two properly kitted out gestalt characters against each other and the swiftblade is going to win nine times out of ten because he can counter what the other guy is doing and still do stuff of his own.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Everybody uses Rope Trick...and everybody knows how to deal with Rope Trick, if true. Stuff a bag of holding up the hole, or use Ethercutting spells to bombard the PC's trapped inside the rope trick and unable to get out. Hells, light a fire under the thing. And that's if you just don't get it dispelled.
Contingency, it does not do what I think you think it does. Most especially, it does not pre-empt something happening to you, nor does it have extrasensory capacity. It reacts after the fact to something that happens to you. And you can only have one of each type on you.
If Celerity wins all combats, then everyone has Celerity, and highest initiative is going to win, anyways. Celerity is broken and if used, then EVERYONE should use it, since it's an 'I Win' button.
Someone who relies on Permabuffs to win dies without them. Saying you can't get your buffs removed is an open challenge to find someone who can remove them for you...adn will do so, and then you do.
Schroedinger's wizard is theorycraft only. The game tends to play very differently. And if PC's abuse the rules for uberness, the DM should be doing so, as well...and the DM has many, many more tricks to play then any PC.
==Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade
The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
I'm sorry, but could you clearly present a situation with a moderate chance of occurance in which the Swiftblade's 6/10 casting, crappy prerequisites, full BAB *yay?*, and so-so buffs while hasted are better than the insanity that is the Incantatrix? I feel like a few of these would really help your case.
It's quite simple actually, you need to be an Evil character with 9 levels of Swiftblade and 3 of Incantatrix, the others levels are meant to fulfil requisites and improve this build's power (adding levels of good classes like Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, and just go to level 10 Swiftblade if you go epic because then you'll get 9th spells and Practiced Spellcaster will fix the 6/10 casting).
Without further ado:
Cast Masochism/Sadism spell from Book of Vile Darkness and then get i REALLY high Spellcraft check very easily, now you just need to cast any buff you want in yourself and turn them Persisted with Metamagic Effect from Incantatrix 3, and there is NO limit for that, while Cyclone_Joker's build relies on Instant Metamagic and Vestige Metamagic that will end after like 4 daily uses, still he acts like he could buff himself forever with his build.
It's not even necessary adding more Incantatrix levels after that unless you want Bonus Metamagic Feats, because all the others Incantatrix's abilities focus on aplying these metamagics, and you already can do that with ease through Masochism/Sadism + Metamagic Effect, so more levels of Incantatrix would be almost irrelevant in this case.
If you don't wanna play as an Evil character you will have to:
1)Rely on CJ's build, which doesn't completely outclass Swiftblade like he says, but is better than Swiftblade about the buffing thing, still Swiftblade is better at other situations and CJ's free Persisted Spells runs out quickly (like 2 Instant Metamagic per day and 2 Vestige Metamagic);
2)Rely on other ways of getting high Spellcraft check, then pick up only 3 levels of Incantatrix and you are done, you even don't need to be a Swiftblade along with these 3 levels of Incantatrix, but higher Initiative + Extra Actions + 50% miss chance for ALL attakcs against you = REALLY useful.
If you don't wanna Swiftblade then go with Dweomerkeeper, IotSV, Wyrm Wizard or something like that, but i believe i already made my point that is: Swiftblade abilities ARE good, and for someone like CJ who always talk about how 10 levels of Swiftblade are redundant/are not worth, is surprising that he takes all 10 levels of Incantatrix if it's possible to do better with just an Evil spell and 3 levels of the aforementioned class.
About CJ's post: I won't quote it because Aelryinth, Armisael and Draco1119 already told the same things i think.
Except that it's not a garbage class. It's poo compared to a full caster, but for a Gish it's pretty good.
No. It isn't. It is strictly inferior to THE basic Gish build, Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellblade 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8, much less complex builds.
Play gestalt, take Swiftblade on a side, smash the game with Innervated Speed and Perpetual Options? Granted, this could be achieved with Factotum too, except Factotum isn't quite as sustainable for one fight.
Uh, no. Gestalt prevents the taking of more than one PrC at any given time, so you're still giving up a lot, plus you still have to meet the garbage prereqs.
It doesn't improve enough in Gestalt rules to make it worth it, because, yanno, it's still a garbage class.
Yeah, like Draco said, you've got loony ideas, brother. Action advantage is god, and gestalt completely eliminates the usual problems (since you could just progress another fullcaster side while you're raising swiftblade and get level 9 spells anyways). Past a certain point, you don't need more choices for what to do with your actions per round, you just straight up need more actions per round. Gestalt lets you hit that point very, very early, making Swiftblade outstanding. Pit two properly kitted out gestalt characters against each other and the swiftblade is going to win nine times out of ten because he can counter what the other guy is doing and still do stuff of his own.
No, he cannot. Than one extra action is not great abuse of the action economy. Wizard 1/Anima Mage 7/Incantatrix 10/Sacred Exorcist 1/Mindbender 1//Factotum 8/Telepath 12 will be strictly superior to whatever trash you can throw together with swiftblade.
Everybody uses Rope Trick...and everybody knows how to deal with Rope Trick, if true.
Nest the Rope Tricks. Problem solved.
Stuff a bag of holding up the hole,
Which does nothing
or use Ethercutting spells to bombard the PC's trapped inside the rope trick and unable to get out.
Source?
Hells, light a fire under the thing. And that's if you just don't get it dispelled.
All of which won't do anything.
Contingency, it does not do what I think you think it does. Most especially, it does not pre-empt something happening to you, nor does it have extrasensory capacity. It reacts after the fact to something that happens to you.
Wrong. Seriously, reread the spell. You declare the conditions. If the conditions occur, period, the spell goes off. Also, attempt of action occurs before action.
And you can only have one of each type on you.
Uh, no. Reread Craft Contingent Spell.
If Celerity wins all combats, then everyone has Celerity, and highest initiative is going to win, anyways. Celerity is broken and if used, then EVERYONE should use it, since it's an 'I Win' button.
There is so much wrong with this, I don't know where to start.
Someone who relies on Permabuffs to win dies without them. Saying you can't get your buffs removed is an open challenge to find someone who can remove them for you...adn will do so, and then you do.
Except they cannot. Tinfoil Hats and Contingency, bro. LoE occurs whenever I want it to occur.
Schroedinger's wizard is theorycraft only. The game tends to play very differently. And if PC's abuse the rules for uberness, the DM should be doing so, as well...and the DM has many, many more tricks to play then any PC.
I'm sorry, but could you clearly present a situation with a moderate chance of occurance in which the Swiftblade's 6/10 casting, crappy prerequisites, full BAB *yay?*, and so-so buffs while hasted are better than the insanity that is the Incantatrix? I feel like a few of these would really help your case.
It's quite simple actually, you need to be an Evil character with 9 levels of Swiftblade and 3 of Incantatrix, the others levels are meant to fulfil requisites and improve this build's power (adding levels of good classes like Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, and just go to level 10 Swiftblade if you go epic because then you'll get 9th spells and Practiced Spellcaster will fix the 6/10 casting).
Without further ado:
Cast Masochism/Sadism spell from Book of Vile Darkness and then get i REALLY high Spellcraft check very easily, now you just need to cast any buff you want in yourself and turn them Persisted with Metamagic Effect from Incantatrix 3, and there is NO limit for that, while Cyclone_Joker's build relies on Instant Metamagic and Vestige Metamagic that will end after like 4 daily uses, still he acts like he could buff himself forever with his build.
I'm sorry, but do you understand how this game works? It is so trivially easy to raise skill checks. It's pathetic. And Metamagic Effect DOES have limited number of uses, which you'd know if you actuallly read the ability instead of parroting bad advice.
Now, the build I've made uses DMM(With Southern Magician to get Divine spells), Vestige Metamagic, Instant Metamagic, Residual Magic, and Metamagic Effect, for truly insane levels of persisting. Now, try to keep up. I'm trying to keep it simple, but I'm not sure I can make it slower for you.
It's not even necessary adding more Incantatrix levels after that unless you want Bonus Metamagic Feats, because all the others Incantatrix's abilities focus on aplying these metamagics, and you already can do that with ease through Masochism/Sadism + Metamagic Effect, so more levels of Incantatrix would be almost irrelevant in this case.
Good god, do you understand how this game works? Masochism and Sadism are irrelevent. Your "build," if such a bad one can be called such, is wastin 9 levels and 3 CL on garbage.
If you don't wanna play as an Evil character you will have to:
1)Rely on CJ's build, which doesn't completely outclass Swiftblade like he says, but is better than Swiftblade about the buffing thing, still Swiftblade is better at other situations and CJ's free Persisted Spells runs out quickly (like 2 Instant Metamagic per day and 2 Vestige Metamagic);
And DMM, and Metamagic Effect, no, it has all your toys and better, and yes it does outclass the trashy swiftblade in EVERY respect.
2)Rely on other ways of getting high Spellcraft check, then pick up only 3 levels of Incantatrix and you are done, you even don't need to be a Swiftblade along with these 3 levels of Incantatrix, but higher Initiative + Extra Actions + 50% miss chance for ALL attakcs against you = REALLY useful.
All of those 'benefits" are either crap, or so easily replicatable that they aren't worth mentioning. And, no, a Swiftblade will NOT go first.
If you don't wanna Swiftblade then go with Dweomerkeeper, IotSV, Wyrm Wizard or something like that, but i believe i already made my point that is: Swiftblade abilities ARE good, and for someone like CJ who always talk about how 10 levels of Swiftblade are redundant/are not worth, is surprising that he takes all 10 levels of Incantatrix if it's possible to do better with just an Evil spell and 3 levels of the aforementioned class.
First off, Wyrm Wizard is not good enough to make that list with Dweomerkeeper and IotSFV. Second off, 10 levels of Incantatrix is good. Any levels of Swiftblade is bad. Because it's a bad class that has no notable features.
I am ORCutus of Borg, 3 of 6. Resistance... is futile. Your life as it has been... is over. From this time forward... you will service... us.
