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Nov 25, 2012 -- 6:48AM, Vincent_Dranoch wrote:

Totally relying on Metamagic Effect for your buff routine not only removes flexibility,

 No, it doesn't. The flexibility of Metamagic Effect by itself is already much better and wider than Instant Metamagic's flexibility. Adding Instant and Vestige Metamagic on the build doesn't do anything that Metamagic Effect can't do.

Which is why it's better not to waste every single Metamagic Effect on buffs. Try to keep up.

but loses out on the absurd versatility of Metamagic Effect,

You don't lose anything, i don't know from where did you get that idea. Metamagic Effect's versatility is the same with or without Instant Metamagic because it does the same Instant does but better, so adding Instant doesn't do anything new.

So you mean Metamagic Effect lets you make certain buffs Ocular for free, without using any of the Metamagic Effect uses? Good to know.

and limits your number of buffs/day.

3+Int mod per day isn't limited, it's more than your daily uses of Instant and Vestige Metamagic.

Residual Magic, bro. Look it up. Quite a nifty little feat.

Furthermore, Metamagic Effect is only useful on persistable buffs. My build has a wider range of useful buffs, because it can make use of the various ways to make non-persistable spells persistable.

Turning Non-Persistable Spells into Persistables there is NOTHING to do with Metamagic Effect, Instant Metamagic or such. These Incantatrix's abilities will only help to Persist spells after you make them someway persistable, so you're still wasting 10 levels for something you can do with 3, sorry.

So, you mean to say that none of the Incantatrix's abilities help using Ocular spell?

Nov 25, 2012 -- 10:29AM, aelryinth wrote:

OMG, he actually resorted To the THOUGHT BOTTLE.

Oh, you mean the item I brought up a page or two ago and you missed?

LOLOLOLOL. That, my friends, is the sign of a really weak argument.

By that very same argument, using letters is a sign of a weak argument. 7\/93 1337-11|.

Do tell me how you're going to cast 4 Persistent Swift Fly spells at level 8 on other people. What's the level pre-req for Incantatrix? Oh, you can't DO this trick until you are an Incantatrix...if the DM allows the PrC! Hey, great, ALL WIZARDS ARE NOW INCANTATRIXES regardless of what the DM says!

You can't do it until you're an Incantatrix. Or an Anima Mage. Or a Mystic Theurge. Or an Ultimate Magus. Or bothered investing in Metamagic-reduction feats. And this is, of course, assuming you actually need to make all of your party members fly.

So, as far as I can tell, your only counter-argument is "o hai teh DM might ban about a half a dozen PrCs."

Kewl! But I suppose that's not all that bad, because he's using over half his Persistents on spells for others! Um, what other hundreds of buffs are you keeping on yourself at level 8, now?

Only the good ones at this level. Just enough to be immune to the nastier stuff, with a bit of protection. It really depends on the race.

Then explain to me why every other wizard in the world isn't doing the exact same thing as you, and everyone over the level of 8 isn't flying all the time.

First off, there aren't many PCs, much less wizards. And "None of the cool kids are doing it" isn't an excuse.

Oh, look! He pulled out the trifecta of blink (Detect Invis, Ghost touch stops cold), Displacement (an illusion easily defeated by multiple senses) and Mirror Image (foiled by Tremorsense, blindsight, detect Illusion, true Sight, Mindsight). I was expecting invisibility, but Detect Invis and the other divs thwart that, too, not to mention simple Spot checks.

Okay, you need a couple of decent-level buffs or some exotic senses to beat them, along with a pretty mediocre enhancement. I am unimpressed.

The rules state very clearly that putting one extra-dimensional space inside another is a very bad thing. ANd you're going to be dumb enough to CREATE one? You deserve what happens to you. And WHAM, his wizards all start their adventuring career at 8th level, too! Isn't that convenient!
Note: Once again, not bothering to look at the rules RIGHT IN THE Rope Trick SPELL IN THE SRD.
To Wit: Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one. 

Okay, now tell me what happens? Oh, yeah, nothing. Try again.

But he thought that since he was 'creating one', instead of maybe 'carrying one' (that got shot down earlier, remember?), he could get away with it.  

Nope. There are no rules for anything happening. So, nothing happens.

And he has unlimited spell capacity, because 'spells are cheap'. Righto, baby-o. It's darling how Schroedinger's Wizard gets to hand wave little things like cash, time and spells per day, isn't it?

Wizards? Hurting for cash? You're joking, right?

Time and spells? You get your spells back every day, and I very highly doubt that any given wizard will always be out adventuring every minute of every day.

And naturally he won't define any of his contingencies, because he knows they will get shot down. Every Schroedinger's Wizard with Contingents I've ever seen that actually defined his conditions put his foot in his mouth hard as the language was torn apart, or so open ended getting attacked by a mosquito set it off. There were about a dozen or two on my Lockdown thread, and NONE of them worked. Actually, I think that's where the 'vs anti-magic hat' first became a meme, or close to it.

[citation needed]

Astral Projection by a mage is subject to a dispel, as it is a spell. The one by a nightmare is subject to all the others. DO keep up.

Exactly. The SU one is a fifth-level spell, meaning nobody will ever cast the 9th level one. And, sure, it's vulnerable to what? Disjunction and AMF? Yawn.

Sticking a packet of dust of Negation into a bulb on an arrow or as a sling bullet to explode when it hits an object will trigger it just fine, and create the 'mage hoisted by his own petard' effect quite nicely, thank you.

Please go and reread the text of Dust of Negation.

Optionally, the person can just run up to you and throw it in the air while in your face. Guess what? Your hat will drop down around the two of you. Things might get a little squishy. Alternatively, they could, you know, push it off to one side, and you're still in the A-M shell, and probably starting a grapple with a superior opponent.

Incorrect. First off, they'd have to enter your square before activating it, giving you plenty of chances to respond, and then the hat is shaped wrong for that to work

And now he's trying to argue that because the rules only mention invisible creatures, spot checks can't possibly see invisible objects, either. Oh, how rich. And consistently avoiding the idea that the portal is magical and easily detected.  Also, you were kind enough to quote HALF the rule, attempting to mislead everyone, to wit: A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40).   Now, I'm not sure where a gaping magical portal holds on there, but it's definitely one of those. Since most magical portals are protrayed as swirling pools, I'm probably guessing a 30; in motion, but not 'moving'.

Wrong. A portal is not an object. And there is no support for portals "looking swirly and in motion."

Oh, oh, he's using SHRINK ITEM now for his 'tinfoil hat'. Did you even bother to read the spell description? No?
You DO realize that it has a volume limit of 2 cu feet/level?

Yes. You obviously do not realize that applies only to the object.

A human body is going to require a minimum of 12 cubic feet to fit comfortably within a properly shaped container, and a tinfoil hat is not a properly shaped container. The reason I used polymorph any object is because you could transform a proper barrier device into a comfortable hat. How exactly are you going to be wearing this shrunken item of rather past your level in cubic volume comfortably?

So, you're claiming that A hat with a maximum size of 16 cubic feet(Which, by the way does not include the contents. You're confusing something's capacity and its volume for some reason), cannot contain a human, which you've placed the comfortable minimum at 12 cubic feet? Lol.

In gaming terms, you have to have an object that completely envelopes your space to stop an emnation from reaching you.

Wrong. Line of effect:

Line of Effect

A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It’s like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it’s not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.
...
An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell’s line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell’s line of effect. 

Furthermore, it has to be sturdier then armor or a shield, on the level of a Tower Shield, to provide the needed level of TOTAL COVER deferment, otherwise it's just considered a part of you (akin to throwing a sheet over yourself) and doesn't do the job.

Wrong. It must only block line of sight.

So, at level 75, when you can Shrink Item an object that blocks out a 5x5x6 space to provide Total Cover for you, look us up. Or, you know, wait until you're level 15, 3/4 of the game is done, and you can actually pull off this trick that won't protect you once the AM center is inside your own hat trapping you.

Once again, a hat is not a solid prism. You are not shrinking it as if it were. You are shrinking only the volume of the hat, itself.

Come now...your arguments are sprouting more holes then a gopher colony. Why don't you go back and do some studying, and come back with some trite optimization rules that might actually work, and don't involve totally broken magical objects that no sane DM will put into his game?  

There is so much wrong here, I don't know where to start.

See, I back mine up with facts, like LoE. You just make up stuff about total cover or swirtly, physically tangible portals.

Seriously, you're the first person to even mention the Thought Bottle on these boards in years. Doing so is pure munchkin power gaming, NOT optimization. It's considered on a par with actually letting some of the Pun-Pun and sarluk mechanics actually work.

And, now accusations on munchkinry on top of microvision, latching on to some very peripheral part of my point. Nice.

Nov 25, 2012 -- 9:22PM, aelryinth wrote:

Draco, the Thought Bottle is an item that allows you to 'shelve xp' and lock in your xp total. So what you do is spend money and xp on a magical item, then use the Thought Bottle to get back all your xp.

It was originally designed as an anti-energy drain/resurrection level drain item, but given the voluntary nature of it, immediately got scoped into all sorts of ways to redo characters and pay xp costs without actually paying them, pick up templates that cost xp and get all the xp back, etc.

[citation needed] on intent.

Horribly abusive item. It never, ever sees use in actual play.  

And now you're claiming your bizarre, tenuous grasp of the rules is the One True Way^tm? Nice. I thought that was reserved for us evil roll-players, you know, people who actually pay attention to rules.

The 'tinfoil hat' concept was designed to defeat an anti-magic shell. Basically, you shrink down a big cone, or a polymorphed barrier, and wear it around. When an anti-magic shell touches it, it naturally loses the morph/returns to full size, surrounding you in something with total cover, and blocking off the AM shell since the shell is an emnation

Not cover. Line of effect. Big difference.

Your wizard then pats himself on the back and gets the heck out of dodge.

Unfortunately, a tinfoil barrier won't provide total cover, and so won't block the emnation. He'd need something a bit sturdier...and Shrink Item by itself can't shrink down an item large enough to do the job.      

Wrong, yet again.

Eld, your posting language and style indicates you're probably from the BG forums too, which has an entirely unrealistic interpretation of the game. CJ certainly is, and is suspicously similar in posting style to someone who had a dozen accounts banned from the wizard servers.

Nope, sorry. First account here. Who did you think I was? Goldo?

And, more to the point, what do you mean "unrealistic?"

Nobody is denying the power of wizards and incantatrixes, but for CJ it's obvious that there are no wizards but Incantatars, because natural selection would take care of it, and he's a regular Schroedinger's Wizard user, meaning trite statements that don't hold up, always having unlimited spell selection and availability, and unlimited time and funds he can adjust on spur of the moment to have the perfect solution to any problem.

Look up Uncanny Forethought. Schrodinger's Wizard is fact.

And he probably can't word a Contingency effectively, either.

I can. Obviously better than you, given your intense lack of understanding of the power of Contingencies.

Sometimes I wonder why I bother. Some people just don't want to learn.

Nov 26, 2012 -- 1:06PM, Krusk wrote:

Nov 26, 2012 -- 12:48PM, Cyclone_Joker wrote:

Sometimes I wonder why I bother. Some people just don't want to learn.

Do you mind giving up then? You are clearly smarter than everyone, and we can't grasp your super advanced concepts even a little bit. Its obviously a waste of your time to keep posting here.

And deprive you of my brilliance? I couldn't be so cruel.

Nov 26, 2012 -- 6:08PM, aelryinth wrote:

The volume of the hat is the area the hat occupies. It doesn't restrict by weight. And it does it in blocks of 2 ft cubed at a time. Nowhere does it say you can customize the area of effect outside 2 ft cubed/level. If it doesn't fit in contiguous blocks, you can't shrink it. In other words, if it's an item thats 4'x 1' x 6", by the area of the spell, you can't Shrink it...it will fall outside the cubic foot requirements of the spell. You can't sculpt the spell because it doesn't allow you to do so.

Wrong. It does not say anywhere that it is one block of 2 cubic feet per level. It must be an object with a total volume of 2 cubic feet per level.

And creating extradimensional spaces inside of others doesn't 'do nothing', otherwise it wouldn't be 'hazardous'. 'Hazardous' without definition means 'let the DM determine the consequences of doing this, and it should be bad', not 'nothing happens'.

Wrong. Rope Trick does not say "O hai dm, make up something to kill peeps." It does nothing, because it doesn't say it does anything.

Eesh. metagame, much?

If knowing what spells do is metagaming, I do not want to be at your tables.

So, no, you can't make that hat, darling.

Yes, I can.

Whether or not the tinfoil is going to be enough to block the Shell is going to be a DM call. If it's thin, and I mean thin enough to qualify for wearing comfortably as a hat, it isn't going to block line of effect any more then wearing a cloth sheet would.

Wrong. All that matters is that it is solid, without a hole of more than one square foot. Nothing else enters into the picture.

And wizards aren't melee. Something moves into your space, you likely can't do a blessed thing, because you cast a spell and don't have a melee weapon readied. Or are you going to blow yet another of your unlimited feat selection on making touch spells an AoO? Claim that you're going to be in a polymorphed form all day at level 3 with readied nat weapons while spellcasting?

Contingency, bro. Or Celerity. Basically, them entering your space tells you exactly what will happen.

And, bro? If your enemies are throwing one-shot items worth more than your WBL, I'm quite worried.

Uncanny Forethought has limitations on what spells you know, and is yet another feat your incantatrix somehow has. Where ARE you getting all these metamagic feats? Residual Metamagic on top of things, yet. Schroedinger's wizard, unlimited feat selection, too!

Uh, no. Uncanny Forethought works for any spell you know. Where are you getting this from? Every wizard takes this, and it's not like Incantatrix has much entry requirements.

And, feats are only unlimited at levels when IA and Simulacrum are cool. 

None of the serious Optimizers on this board use the Thought Bottle anymore, it was broken as badly as Sarluuk poly other. It's a dead item, and even referencing it is a clear arrow to a munchkin mindset. Welcome to Gillikin land, Schroedinger Wizard, darling.

Uh, no. Try again.

Given the liberality you're taking with the rules, I find it highly amusing that something that burst up and disperses dust over a 10' area is a no go with you. Oh, wait, it would shut down your wizard. Of course it can't work.

Read what is says. It starts in your square.

And as for your miss defenses poo-poo...blindsight is available on large numbers of monsters below level 5,

None of which are threatening in any way.

tremorsense is available to low level elementals,

Which are, again, so weak you don't need to bother

Detect Invis and Det Illusion can both be made permanent, and the former is long-lasting;

And this will help you against one buff. Okay.

Ghost Touch is available as Serren Wood for little cost and doesn't even have to be magical;

Okay. Your point?

and True Seeing is available on an erinyes and tons of creatures stronger then one, not to mention once/day magical items and the like, or even Gems of Seeing...and not to mention a single AoE spell would clear out every mirror image you toss up. The idea that you'd blow three spell slots on having all of them up at one time is amusing, especially for multiple fights, and gold costs are going to rein in having them as magical items. Except, of course, Schroedinger's wizard with unlimited gold.  

So, basically, all of these defenses are absolutely worthless because they can be beat by an unholy lovechild of several different creatues with exotic sense, or high-level weak creature, or people kitted out with gear specifically to counter that sort of thing? Okay. 

And you're using a Nightmare for Astral Projection. Wonderful. Except a summoned creature is highly susceptible to being dispelled because it's summoned; it's evil and totally untrustworthy; and it's a nightmare. It dies if someone sneezes too hard at it, and gets banished at the drop of a hat, and you with it. Ta, darling.  

Reread Astral Projection, bro. The Nightmare's status of Called or not has no relevence on whether or not your AP is up, and its trustworthiness is irrelevent. It is being compelled.
[You note that the entire party is flying at level 8, then talk around the point that it's impossible. You claim infinite amounts of money for wizards, and that's a freaking riot...and where are you fitting in crafting feats amidst all these metamagic feats you suddenly have, darling?

There is so much wrong with this, I'm not going to start. IF you cannot keep up, don't bother. You're just embarrassing yourself.

Your arguments are narrow and extremely unconvincing, pure Schroedinger's Wizard. You have unlimited everything, OF COURSE you can handle anything. In the real game, things tend to not work out so marvelously. There's little things like time, money, limited spell knowledge, limited resources/day, and per level gold guidelines that you obviously aren't playing with in the games that you are.

In other words, you do not understand the difference between a wizard with a nice player, taking care to not step on anyone's toes and be a team player, and what a wizard can actually be.

And WBL is so easy to break, I can't believe you would seriously bring this up. 

Nov 27, 2012 -- 6:17AM, Vincent_Dranoch wrote:

Which is why it's better not to waste every single Metamagic Effect on buffs. Try to keep up.

You got 3+Int mod Metamagic Effect per day for 3 levels of Incantatrix, for more 4 levels you got ONE instant metamagic that does the same thing Metamagic Effect does, so you don't want to waste Metamagic Effect uses because you got ONE extra use after spending 4 more levels?

Please.

Oh, of course. Because Incantatrix never gets ANYTHING at all beyond Metamagic Effect and Instant Metamagic, no siree. And of COURSE Metamagic effect lets you make every single spell in the universe Persistable. I'm so glad you're here to inform us of the invisible text telling us of these secret abilities and the fake text there to stump people! I don't know what we would do without you!