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Nov 24, 2012 -- 8:16AM, draco1119 wrote:

As you've mentioned before, Smoking is 3.0, and so is not commonly used.

Irrelevent. 3.0 got granfathered in, unless specifically replaced or changed.

And you've still never bothered stating in what book it's found.

Lords of Darkness. Great book, if a bit overpowered. Especially that damned Sky Mage.

Also... What the hell is "chahar aina, dastana" armor? Are those special materials, enchantments, what?

Sigh...

Chahar Aina is from Oriental Adventures. It provides +1 Armor bonus that specifically stacks with a couple types of armor, most notably the chain shirt. Dastana is from the A&EG, and is quite similar, except stacks with everything.

Nov 24, 2012 -- 4:52PM, aelryinth wrote:

Oh, my, and now our darling poster is moving the goalposts around!

Uh, nope.

Somehow, despite the fact he's always been using Rope Trick, he's now deferring it to level 8 when he can sleep through the night.

Duh. That's when it's used. Are you dense?

And somehow, the ENTIRE PARTY CAN FLY ALL DAY by this level.

Jesus, do you know anything about optimization? Persisted Swift Fly, bro. 

And all he has the money to automatically have all the proper defenses for whatever you throw at him without straining his magical capability.

Spells are cheap.

He natters on about an 80% miss chance that is actually zero, because he won't support it.

You cannot be this dense. Let's look at a set of core-only buffs for sweetums, here. Blink, Displacement, and Mirror Image all come to mind. So, that tops 80%. Which, of couse, you've provided no way to beat, so you really have no room to talk. Beat that list, and then I'll bring out the fun toys.

And doesn't realize the DC 20 spot check is for invisible objects, too.

Uh, no.

A Spot check result higher than 20 generally lets you become aware of an invisible creature near you, though you can’t actually see it.

See, I can act like an arrogant douche because I'm right. You are not. So please, stop embarassing yourself.

Not to mention a simple Detect Magic. And people suspecting it's there. Oh, right, nobody knows that all wizards use Rope Trick. Got it!

Which is why Boccob gave Wizards Fly. And Stone Shape. And Polymorph. And any number of other easy ways to hide.

Then, he's going to NEST TWO EXTRA-DIMENSIONAL SPACES!!!!! LOL. And somehow not be obliterated.

Show me where it says that nesting two Rope Tricks will obliterate someone. I'm waiting.

And THEN, we magically jump to level 13, and he must not be uber, because now he's relying on the cleric in the party!!!  And as we all know, Plane shift, that wonderfully accurate transportation spell that sets you down somewhere within a couple hundred miles of your destination. Yeah. I mean, c'mon, if you're going to do that, just say you're going to teleport home at night, right?

What? Now you're just babbling. Please, do calm down your impotent rage long enough to form a coherent sentence.

He's tossing out 'Contingency will do this and that' without daring to provide wording of all these delicious can't-fail contingency spells.

Because I have better things to do. If you can't figure out how to word contingencies, it's hardly my problem. Just don't assume everyone is as... challenged... as you.

He doesn't realize that everyone and their mother now knows about the tinfoil hat, and will put the a-m shell up on him point-blank, not go running up with it already active. Leaving him trapped inside his own un-polymorphed hat inside an a-m shell, waitinig for his enemies to sunder it and him. Dust of negation bulb on an arrowhead from a missile guy with improved precise shot, ignoring all miss chances, yay!

First off, Dust of Negation doesn't work that way. Please read the rules. When activated, it creates an AMF in a 10' spread from the point of origin. So the whole "shooting it" idea doesn't work.

Even if it did work, Displacement, Blink, and Mirror Image are not affected as Blink and Displacement are not "less than" total concealment(In fact, one of them is total concealment), and Mirror Image is not, in fact, a miss chance, just something very similar and almost as good. So, no. You wouldn't hit the wizard.

Of course, he's only going to have such a hat in the late 1/3rd of the game, but Dust of Negation is available considerably before then.  

Please stop, you're just embarassing yourself. If you'd pay attention to the rules, you'd know that Shrink Item is a third-level spell. So, in reality, it comes into effect a bit before one can reasonably spend 3300GP on a one-shot item, especially one that doesn't work like you think.

===========
In other words, there are things wizards can do, and by now, they are rote. On the flip side, people of that level messing with wizards know the wizards can do that stuff, and pull it off.

Astral Projection means you are vulnerable to anything that hedges out extraplanars...plus you can get dispelled, or dismissed. One spell of much lower level to counter your spell.

And you're relying on a nightmare to do that? oooookay...

First off, the Nightmare's Astral Projection is a SU ability. No Dispel. Second off, it's a fifth-level spell. Third, I really don't see anything you can try to pull that isn't easily beat by the slightest bit of preparation.

The problem iwth being paranoid is that when the people really are out to get you, they know the defenses you'll use and they will overcome them, and they don't have to go to extremes...they just have to have the right spells. While said paranoid wizard has to spend copious amounts of time, money, xp to try and have those defenses in place, while his enemies can take them and him down that much quicker.

No. Wrong. Those defenses are what are used because those defenses are what works.

Schroedinger wizard is theory-craft. With unlimited time and money and crafting ability, of course anything is possible. Unfortunately, wizards live in the real world with everyone else, and and it just isn't that easy.

Uncanny Forethought and the Thought Bottle beg to differ. Schrondinger's Wizard is. 

It is that easy. If it were real, wizards probably wouldn't actually fight, but sit down with their rivals in some very comfy chairs with some nice tea and compare their lists of contingencies, because any combat between them would be both incredibly lethal and incredibly expensive. But nothing short of a wizard would be able to trigger said contingencies. Because wizards are that much better than everything else, short of Archivists, Artificers, and Warlocks at this level

==Aelryinth                            

Must you do this after every post? We can all see your avvy and username. 

Since VD obviously doesn't understand how the build works, and probably not even how the GAME works, as well as his apparent thought that only Swiftblades get Metamagic Effect, I think I'm done with him.

And obviously you don't know how to read because i never said that only Swiftblade gets Metamagic Effect, what i said is that i'm getting 3 levels of Incantatrix to make the build work while you are spending 10 levels of Incantatrix to do the same thing a level 3 does.

Nov 23, 2012 -- 8:14PM, Andarious-Rosethorn wrote:

Nov 23, 2012 -- 5:28PM, draco1119 wrote:

Ael...

Totally relying on Metamagic Effect for your buff routine not only removes flexibility,

 

No, it doesn't. The flexibility of Metamagic Effect by itself is already much better and wider than Instant Metamagic's flexibility. Adding Instant and Vestige Metamagic on the build doesn't do anything that Metamagic Effect can't do.

but loses out on the absurd versatility of Metamagic Effect,

You don't lose anything, i don't know from where did you get that idea. Metamagic Effect's versatility is the same with or without Instant Metamagic because it does the same Instant does but better, so adding Instant doesn't do anything new.

and limits your number of buffs/day.

3+Int mod per day isn't limited, it's more than your daily uses of Instant and Vestige Metamagic.

Furthermore, Metamagic Effect is only useful on persistable buffs. My build has a wider range of useful buffs, because it can make use of the various ways to make non-persistable spells persistable.

Turning Non-Persistable Spells into Persistables there is NOTHING to do with Metamagic Effect, Instant Metamagic or such. These Incantatrix's abilities will only help to Persist spells after you make them someway persistable, so you're still wasting 10 levels for something you can do with 3, sorry.

OMG, he actually resorted To the THOUGHT BOTTLE.

LOLOLOLOL. That, my friends, is the sign of a really weak argument.

Do tell me how you're going to cast 4 Persistent Swift Fly spells at level 8 on other people. What's the level pre-req for Incantatrix? Oh, you can't DO this trick until you are an Incantatrix...if the DM allows the PrC! Hey, great, ALL WIZARDS ARE NOW INCANTATRIXES regardless of what the DM says!

Kewl! But I suppose that's not all that bad, because he's using over half his Persistents on spells for others! Um, what other hundreds of buffs are you keeping on yourself at level 8, now?

Then explain to me why every other wizard in the world isn't doing the exact same thing as you, and everyone over the level of 8 isn't flying all the time.

Oh, look! He pulled out the trifecta of blink (Detect Invis, Ghost touch stops cold), Displacement (an illusion easily defeated by multiple senses) and Mirror Image (foiled by Tremorsense, blindsight, detect Illusion, true Sight, Mindsight). I was expecting invisibility, but Detect Invis and the other divs thwart that, too, not to mention simple Spot checks.

The rules state very clearly that putting one extra-dimensional space inside another is a very bad thing. ANd you're going to be dumb enough to CREATE one? You deserve what happens to you. And WHAM, his wizards all start their adventuring career at 8th level, too! Isn't that convenient!
Note: Once again, not bothering to look at the rules RIGHT IN THE Rope Trick SPELL IN THE SRD.
To Wit: Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one. 

But he thought that since he was 'creating one', instead of maybe 'carrying one' (that got shot down earlier, remember?), he could get away with it. 

And he has unlimited spell capacity, because 'spells are cheap'. Righto, baby-o. It's darling how Schroedinger's Wizard gets to hand wave little things like cash, time and spells per day, isn't it?             

And naturally he won't define any of his contingencies, because he knows they will get shot down. Every Schroedinger's Wizard with Contingents I've ever seen that actually defined his conditions put his foot in his mouth hard as the language was torn apart, or so open ended getting attacked by a mosquito set it off. There were about a dozen or two on my Lockdown thread, and NONE of them worked. Actually, I think that's where the 'vs anti-magic hat' first became a meme, or close to it.

Astral Projection by a mage is subject to a dispel, as it is a spell. The one by a nightmare is subject to all the others. DO keep up.

Sticking a packet of dust of Negation into a bulb on an arrow or as a sling bullet to explode when it hits an object will trigger it just fine, and create the 'mage hoisted by his own petard' effect quite nicely, thank you.  Optionally, the person can just run up to you and throw it in the air while in your face. Guess what? Your hat will drop down around the two of you. Things might get a little squishy. Alternatively, they could, you know, push it off to one side, and you're still in the A-M shell, and probably starting a grapple with a superior opponent.

And now he's trying to argue that because the rules only mention invisible creatures, spot checks can't possibly see invisible objects, either. Oh, how rich. And consistently avoiding the idea that the portal is magical and easily detected.  Also, you were kind enough to quote HALF the rule, attempting to mislead everyone, to wit: A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40).   Now, I'm not sure where a gaping magical portal holds on there, but it's definitely one of those. Since most magical portals are protrayed as swirling pools, I'm probably guessing a 30; in motion, but not 'moving'.

Oh, oh, he's using SHRINK ITEM now for his 'tinfoil hat'. Did you even bother to read the spell description? No?
You DO realize that it has a volume limit of 2 cu feet/level?
A human body is going to require a minimum of 12 cubic feet to fit comfortably within a properly shaped container, and a tinfoil hat is not a properly shaped container. The reason I used polymorph any object is because you could transform a proper barrier device into a comfortable hat. How exactly are you going to be wearing this shrunken item of rather past your level in cubic volume comfortably?
In gaming terms, you have to have an object that completely envelopes your space to stop an emnation from reaching you.
Furthermore, it has to be sturdier then armor or a shield, on the level of a Tower Shield, to provide the needed level of TOTAL COVER deferment, otherwise it's just considered a part of you (akin to throwing a sheet over yourself) and doesn't do the job.
So, at level 75, when you can Shrink Item an object that blocks out a 5x5x6 space to provide Total Cover for you, look us up. Or, you know, wait until you're level 15, 3/4 of the game is done, and you can actually pull off this trick that won't protect you once the AM center is inside your own hat trapping you.

Come now...your arguments are sprouting more holes then a gopher colony. Why don't you go back and do some studying, and come back with some trite optimization rules that might actually work, and don't involve totally broken magical objects that no sane DM will put into his game?  
Seriously, you're the first person to even mention the Thought Bottle on these boards in years. Doing so is pure munchkin power gaming, NOT optimization. It's considered on a par with actually letting some of the Pun-Pun and sarluk mechanics actually work.

And I've been signing my name this way for ten years on these boards. If you don't like it, tough. When people start whining about miniscule things, it's a sheer sign they are losing an argument.

==Aelryinth