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Nov 16, 2012 -- 2:50AM, Andarious-Rosethorn wrote:

Actually, it says "the effect becomes extraordinary rather than a continuous spell effect". So no, disjunction and AMF don't work.

Oh, huh. You're right. Misread that.

I'm not saying you need 5 (premetamagic) spells/turn, I'm just saying that it's really sweet to cast a single third level spell (as a swift action), and gain Freeodom of Movement, Greater Blink, Displacement, a bonus to AC, Attacks and Reflex Saves, and an extra standard action each turn. And no, it cannot be dispelled, in fact you can disjunction or AMF with impunity yourself.

Those abilities are very shiny, yes, but giving up 10 levels and four caster levels for those abilities, which are easily replicated by a regular wizard? Not shiny at all.

Now that said... IF you bother to take the 10th level (and lose the final caster level), which in an EPIC game I would, you can make that first haste a 4 round time stop by using a 9th if you'd like (As per the 10th level ability), and buff like mad, move around a bit, set up a pile of magicala traps, what have you, discern the location of all your enemies.

And if you would, that's fine. However, all of those abilities fall on their face when you run into the tortoise-wizard. Said tortoise-wizard who didn't waste those levels will be better-equiped to end you in one action, which is all it needs.

Also, it has another nice feature, Casting Stat to Init, which also means you probably act first.

You think initiative actually matters at this level? Seriously?

Incantatrix/SCM would wipe your swiftblade in a second.

And I'm sorry but win more spells are not what wins at this power level, it's rocket tag. Going first, and succesfully locating your opponent in time to tag them frist is what wins.

Uh, no. Try again. What wins at this level is preparation. Mindsight and Divine Oracle are vastly, vastly superior to the trash that is Swiftblade at this level.

Look, the swiftblade has all these very, very big, impressive, shiny-looking abilities. But those big, fancy abilities aren't any where near effective compared to taking good classes. Most of what it does, wizards can do anyways. I'd honstly put money on a level 20 theurge build over that thing, assuming no Epic spellcasting, obviously.

EDIT: Desnarked the post somewhat. 

Nov 16, 2012 -- 4:39PM, aelryinth wrote:

Mindsight starts getting near useless in an Epic game because everyone and their mother has Mind Blank up and runnign 24/7...at least if they are NPC casters. Any prot/divination neutralizes the ability. Yes, it's great if nobody has defenses. If they do, it's just a line on the paper.

==Aelryinth

Bro? Mind Blank doesn't stop Mindsight. NOTHING stops Mindsight short of being within 20 feat of a Hellbreaker. This is why Mindsight is so good.

Nov 16, 2012 -- 7:28PM, Vincent_Dranoch wrote:

Cyclone_Joker

Uh, no. Hell no.

Look, UM is garbage compared to Circle Magic, and CL is overrated. Mediocre build. Plus, this builld lacks omnicience and mindsight. Both are vastly superior to UM.

UM + Master Spellthief is absolutely better than Circle Magic. Because you don't need peoples giving you spell energy for 1 hour to improve your CL, and because your CL doesn't stack at 40. Actually is possible to combine Circle Magic, multiple Arcane Caster Classes and Master Spellthief, then you get a CL of 40+40+40+40...

No, it isn't. Not at all. Why does everyone here have a fetish for such a mediocre class?

Ultimate Magus is just a non-overpowered (and practical) way of using Master Spellthief without resorting to Circle Magic, since his DM won't allow "broken things".

First off, UM is only anything resembling useful with a truly absurd CL and Reserves of Strength, and I'm pretty sure that qualifies as "broken" to any DM who likes banning things. 

Ultimate Magus is weak. Mystic Theurge is a superior class.

But if Mindsight and Omnicience are so important, it's possible to give up some levels of UM or whatever other thing to fulfill these roles AND Master Spellthief Cheese.

Because there are better things to blow levels on than UM.

And from what book is Omnicience anyway?

Core and Complete Divine. It's also known as Divine Oraclel+CoP

Now I really want to know: Why is everyone and their dog so obsessed with such mediocre classes as UM and Swiftblade. Hell, both are strictly inferior to Mystic Theurge, and it has no class features.

No way Mystic Theurge is superior to Ultimate Magus if the later possess the Master Spellthief feat, since there's no version of this feat for arcane + divine spellcasting (actually there is in a Dragon Magazine, but just works for one spell school for feat, not for ALL your spells from ALL schools).

Mystic Theurge is absolutely 100% superior to UM.

And you say any Wizard can do the same as Swift Blade just using Celerity and Shapechange, but a Persisted Haste on a Swift Blade will give him 1 extra action like forever (well, you just have to remake this every 24 hour, but until there your Haste don't get dispelled, nulified or disjointed by any means), what is better than using Shapechange for that, AND you can use BOTH this Swift ability and Shapechange to get 2 extra actions.

Okay. You're blowing 10 levels to gain abilities that are barely superior to the normal abilities of a wizard. Not worth it.

Lemme tell you something: The difference between three full-round actions and four full-round actions and a standard action is negligable at best, especially when Time Stop is on the table. Certainly not worth 10 levels.

Final note here: AMF means nothing. Every caster has been wearing a tinfoil hat for six levels. Hell, Dispelling and Disjoining are relatively easy to beat with a simple Contingency.

About Celerity, you don't need to rely on it anymore to act first, you can go first just rolling Initiative and then when it's your enemy's turn you act again now using Celerity (and your wonderful tip about Favor of the Martyr to get rid of Dazle weakness).

Can't take immediate actions while flat-footed. Do note that you actually can talk the second combat starts, and then use it since you took a free action, but this is liable to get books thrown at you.

And, bro? Initiative means absolutely less than nothing at this level. Contingencies, being a turtle, and so on render the whole thing pointless. Also, an Incantatrix WILL have higher intiative than a swiftblade. Persistomancy is vastly superior to a slight boost from a garbage class.

Nov 17, 2012 -- 6:00AM, Andarious-Rosethorn wrote:

You're all opinion and no citation human wikipedia guy. Give us some actual FACT, notice how most of us quote books or SRD when we make an arguement? You just say "mine's bigger", and that's it, you never give anything more useful than "I hate yours, I have a hard on for this!"

Citation for creature's natural and EX abilities not being shut down in an AMF? Or that untyped abilities are not shut down by AMFs?

Quite frankly, basically all of what I said should be so blatantly obvious to anyone with even the slightest shred of system mastery that I'm not sure exactly what you want me to cite. Was it wrong of me to assume people actually understood the system?