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No, don't dispel my tinfoil hat! How else am I going to role play lokiare?!

Nov 15, 2012 -- 5:15PM, Cyclone_Joker wrote:

... Oh, and DM, it's Cerebremancer. Psychic Theurge is Psionic/Divine. 

Gah!
Right.

Nov 18, 2012 -- 8:37AM, draco1119 wrote:

 ... one of those shrill hotties on MSNBC ...

You can always hit the mute button ...

That's the point of Wizards! A lot of them! Solid Fog, Force Cage, Stoneshape, and so much more I'm not going to bother going further.

It was what i told, that there's no way of covering ALL situations with ONE spell, there's a spell for each one situation, even the most embracing spell still doesn't cover all situations, and then more actions are welcome to cast more spells that can cover each others weaknesses.

And THAT's why Boccob gave us Time Stop.

Swifty can cast a better Time Stop and before other one one does, unless you have a Persisted spell that makes you go first or if you have a Persisted Time Stop itself lol, but it requires preparation which you won't have always, so there is the situations where each one is better.

In one impossible-to-occur event, a Swiftblade has a tiny, tiny chance of out-performing an Incantatrix. Except, a wizard can buff in one round.

A small shiny light of hope just brightened. Sou you admit there's situations where Swiftblade (not just Swiftblade, but any good class/PrC) can out-perform Incantatrix depending on the niches of the classes being compared and depending on the situations they're going through.

If you LET the DM do that you deserve to be caught unprepared.

Well, he is the DM lol

And a Wizard is a paranoid, crazy super-genius. Massive buff routines, contingencies, and preparations are not out of character.

I never said that all of it is out of character, i just said that sometimes even that is not enough because everything is circumstantial and situational.

Nov 19, 2012 -- 8:23PM, Vincent_Dranoch wrote:

That's the point of Wizards! A lot of them! Solid Fog, Force Cage, Stoneshape, and so much more I'm not going to bother going further.

It was what i told, that there's no way of covering ALL situations with ONE spell, there's a spell for each one situation, even the most embracing spell still doesn't cover all situations, and then more actions are welcome to cast more spells that can cover each others weaknesses.

What is this, I don't even...

And THAT's why Boccob gave us Time Stop.

Swifty can cast a better Time Stop and before other one one does, unless you have a Persisted spell that makes you go first or if you have a Persisted Time Stop itself lol, but it requires preparation which you won't have always, so there is the situations where each one is better.

I've been over this before. The Swiftblade will not go first, and the "superior"( ) timestop is not worth wasting ten or so levels.

In one impossible-to-occur event, a Swiftblade has a tiny, tiny chance of out-performing an Incantatrix. Except, a wizard can buff in one round.

A small shiny light of hope just brightened. Sou you admit there's situations where Swiftblade (not just Swiftblade, but any good class/PrC) can out-perform Incantatrix depending on the niches of the classes being compared and depending on the situations they're going through.

No. A Swiftblade cannot out-perform an Incantatrix. The Swiftblade is simply an inferior class.

If you LET the DM do that you deserve to be caught unprepared.

Well, he is the DM lol

What.

Okay, you've proven that the garbage class you have an unhealthy fetish for can outperform an actually good class if the DM is pulling out "rule 0" bull. Congrats. Now it's up to me to point out that by that reasoning, a level 1 commoner is superior, because it could be played by the DM's SO. 

And a Wizard is a paranoid, crazy super-genius. Massive buff routines, contingencies, and preparations are not out of character.

I never said that all of it is out of character, i just said that sometimes even that is not enough because everything is circumstantial and situational.

No. An Incantatrix should NEVER be caught unprepared. Uncanny Forethought says as much. 

So, yes, I will concede that a swiftblade can outperform an Incantatrix, under the conditions that the DM is a spiteful bastard out to get the Incantatrix, and the Swiftblade is being played by said DM's significant other. What an amazing class, eh? Right up there with Samurai and Commoner.
 

The DM doesn't need to be a spiteful bastard to put an Incantatrix (or almost any other class) in a situation where it is inferior compared to Swiftblade (or almost any other class), the DM just needs to be as smart (or smartest) as the player who is using Incantatrix, Swiftblade, preparation, no-need-to-preparation useful abilities, and so on.

Of course certain classes can cover more of the situations a DM can put against players, mainly spellcasters, that's why they're Tier 1, that's the case of both Incantatrix and Swiftblade, so even if Incantatrix being better than Swiftblade (and i do believe that), it still doesn't outclass Swiftblade completely, that's just non-sense of you.

I'm sorry, but could you clearly present a situation with a moderate chance of occurance in which the Swiftblade's 6/10 casting, crappy prerequisites, full BAB *yay?*, and so-so buffs while hasted are better than the insanity that is the Incantatrix? I feel like a few of these would really help your case.

Nov 19, 2012 -- 9:33PM, Vincent_Dranoch wrote:

The DM doesn't need to be a spiteful bastard to put an Incantatrix (or almost any other class) in a situation where it is inferior compared to Swiftblade (or almost any other class), the DM just needs to be as smart (or smartest) as the player who is using Incantatrix, Swiftblade, preparation, no-need-to-preparation useful abilities, and so on.

No. That is wrong. An Incantatrix cannot be caught unprepared unless played by an incompetent player. Rope Trick, Time Stop, MMM, so many easy ways to make sure you get all your buffs done. And if that doesn't work, Teleport and Plane Shift will let you escape to buff up.

An Incantatrix will only EVER be caught buffless is it was just nailed by a disjunction, and it should have several Contingent Spells to prevent this. So, in other words, it should NEVER be caught buffless.

Of course certain classes can cover more of the situations a DM can put against players, mainly spellcasters, that's why they're Tier 1, that's the case of both Incantatrix and Swiftblade, so even if Incantatrix being better than Swiftblade (and i do believe that), it still doesn't outclass Swiftblade completely, that's just non-sense of you.

The Swiftblade has nothing superior to a basic buff routine.  Its only toys are mediocre. 

Anything a Swiftblade can do, an Incantatrix can do better.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 5:17AM, Eld20Generalissimo wrote:

I'm sorry, but could you clearly present a situation with a moderate chance of occurance in which the Swiftblade's 6/10 casting, crappy prerequisites, full BAB *yay?*, and so-so buffs while hasted are better than the insanity that is the Incantatrix? I feel like a few of these would really help your case.

Quite frankly, I'm having trouble seeing anything it can do that is superior to any good wizard PrC. Incantatrix was just what came up.

Play gestalt, take Swiftblade on a side, smash the game with Innervated Speed and Perpetual Options? Granted, this could be achieved with Factotum too, except Factotum isn't quite as sustainable for one fight.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 10:34AM, Armisael wrote:

Play gestalt, take Swiftblade on a side, smash the game with Innervated Speed and Perpetual Options? Granted, this could be achieved with Factotum too, except Factotum isn't quite as sustainable for one fight.

Uh, no. Gestalt prevents the taking of more than one PrC at any given time, so you're still giving up a lot, plus you still have to meet the garbage prereqs.

It doesn't improve enough in Gestalt rules to make it worth it, because, yanno, it's still a garbage class.

Except that it's not a garbage class. It's poo compared to a full caster, but for a Gish it's pretty good.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 12:26PM, Cyclone_Joker wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 10:34AM, Armisael wrote:

Play gestalt, take Swiftblade on a side, smash the game with Innervated Speed and Perpetual Options? Granted, this could be achieved with Factotum too, except Factotum isn't quite as sustainable for one fight.

Uh, no. Gestalt prevents the taking of more than one PrC at any given time, so you're still giving up a lot, plus you still have to meet the garbage prereqs.

It doesn't improve enough in Gestalt rules to make it worth it, because, yanno, it's still a garbage class.

Yeah, like Draco said, you've got loony ideas, brother. Action advantage is god, and gestalt completely eliminates the usual problems (since you could just progress another fullcaster side while you're raising swiftblade and get level 9 spells anyways). Past a certain point, you don't need more choices for what to do with your actions per round, you just straight up need more actions per round. Gestalt lets you hit that point very, very early, making Swiftblade outstanding. Pit two properly kitted out gestalt characters against each other and the swiftblade is going to win nine times out of ten because he can counter what the other guy is doing and still do stuff of his own.

Everybody uses Rope Trick...and everybody knows how to deal with Rope Trick, if true. Stuff a bag of holding up the hole, or use Ethercutting spells to bombard the PC's trapped inside the rope trick and unable to get out. Hells, light a fire under the thing. And that's if you just don't get it dispelled.

Contingency, it does not do what I think you think it does. Most especially, it does not pre-empt something happening to you, nor does it have extrasensory capacity. It reacts after the fact to something that happens to you. And you can only have one of each type on you.

If Celerity wins all combats, then everyone has Celerity, and highest initiative is going to win, anyways. Celerity is broken and if used, then EVERYONE should use it, since it's an 'I Win' button.

Someone who relies on Permabuffs to win dies without them. Saying you can't get your buffs removed is an open challenge to find someone who can remove them for you...adn will do so, and then you do.

Schroedinger's wizard is theorycraft only. The game tends to play very differently. And if PC's abuse the rules for uberness, the DM should be doing so, as well...and the DM has many, many more tricks to play then any PC.

==Aelryinth   

Nov 20, 2012 -- 5:17AM, Eld20Generalissimo wrote:

I'm sorry, but could you clearly present a situation with a moderate chance of occurance in which the Swiftblade's 6/10 casting, crappy prerequisites, full BAB *yay?*, and so-so buffs while hasted are better than the insanity that is the Incantatrix? I feel like a few of these would really help your case.

It's quite simple actually, you need to be an Evil character with 9 levels of Swiftblade and 3 of Incantatrix, the others levels are meant to fulfil requisites and improve this build's power (adding levels of good classes like Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, and just go to level 10 Swiftblade if you go epic because then you'll get 9th spells and Practiced Spellcaster will fix the 6/10 casting).

Without further ado:

Cast Masochism/Sadism spell from Book of Vile Darkness and then get i REALLY high Spellcraft check very easily, now you just need to cast any buff you want in yourself and turn them Persisted with Metamagic Effect from Incantatrix 3, and there is NO limit for that, while Cyclone_Joker's build relies on Instant Metamagic and Vestige Metamagic that will end after like 4 daily uses, still he acts like he could buff himself forever with his build.

It's not even necessary adding more Incantatrix levels after that unless you want Bonus Metamagic Feats, because all the others Incantatrix's abilities focus on aplying these metamagics, and you already can do that with ease through Masochism/Sadism + Metamagic Effect, so more levels of Incantatrix would be almost irrelevant in this case.

If you don't wanna play as an Evil character you will have to:

1)Rely on CJ's build, which doesn't completely outclass Swiftblade like he says, but is better than Swiftblade about the buffing thing, still Swiftblade is better at other situations and CJ's free Persisted Spells runs out quickly (like 2 Instant Metamagic per day and 2 Vestige Metamagic);

2)Rely on other ways of getting high Spellcraft check, then pick up only 3 levels of Incantatrix and you are done, you even don't need to be a Swiftblade along with these 3 levels of Incantatrix, but higher Initiative + Extra Actions + 50% miss chance for ALL attakcs against you = REALLY useful.

If you don't wanna Swiftblade then go with Dweomerkeeper, IotSV, Wyrm Wizard or something like that, but i believe i already made my point that is: Swiftblade abilities ARE good, and for someone like CJ who always talk about how 10 levels of Swiftblade are redundant/are not worth, is surprising that he takes all 10 levels of Incantatrix if it's possible to do better with just an Evil spell and 3 levels of the aforementioned class.

About CJ's post: I won't quote it because Aelryinth, Armisael and Draco1119 already told the same things i think.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 12:30PM, draco1119 wrote:

Except that it's not a garbage class. It's poo compared to a full caster, but for a Gish it's pretty good.

No. It isn't. It is strictly inferior to THE basic Gish build, Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellblade 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8, much less complex builds.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 1:50PM, Armisael wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 12:26PM, Cyclone_Joker wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 10:34AM, Armisael wrote:

Play gestalt, take Swiftblade on a side, smash the game with Innervated Speed and Perpetual Options? Granted, this could be achieved with Factotum too, except Factotum isn't quite as sustainable for one fight.

Uh, no. Gestalt prevents the taking of more than one PrC at any given time, so you're still giving up a lot, plus you still have to meet the garbage prereqs.

It doesn't improve enough in Gestalt rules to make it worth it, because, yanno, it's still a garbage class.

Yeah, like Draco said, you've got loony ideas, brother. Action advantage is god, and gestalt completely eliminates the usual problems (since you could just progress another fullcaster side while you're raising swiftblade and get level 9 spells anyways). Past a certain point, you don't need more choices for what to do with your actions per round, you just straight up need more actions per round. Gestalt lets you hit that point very, very early, making Swiftblade outstanding. Pit two properly kitted out gestalt characters against each other and the swiftblade is going to win nine times out of ten because he can counter what the other guy is doing and still do stuff of his own.

No, he cannot. Than one extra action is not great abuse of the action economy. Wizard 1/Anima Mage 7/Incantatrix 10/Sacred Exorcist 1/Mindbender 1//Factotum 8/Telepath 12 will be strictly superior to whatever trash you can throw together with swiftblade.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 4:43PM, aelryinth wrote:

Everybody uses Rope Trick...and everybody knows how to deal with Rope Trick, if true.

Nest the Rope Tricks. Problem solved.

Stuff a bag of holding up the hole,

Which does nothing

or use Ethercutting spells to bombard the PC's trapped inside the rope trick and unable to get out.

Source?

Hells, light a fire under the thing. And that's if you just don't get it dispelled.

All of which won't do anything.

Contingency, it does not do what I think you think it does. Most especially, it does not pre-empt something happening to you, nor does it have extrasensory capacity. It reacts after the fact to something that happens to you.

Wrong. Seriously, reread the spell. You declare the conditions. If the conditions occur, period, the spell goes off. Also, attempt of action occurs before action.

And you can only have one of each type on you.

Uh, no. Reread Craft Contingent Spell.

If Celerity wins all combats, then everyone has Celerity, and highest initiative is going to win, anyways. Celerity is broken and if used, then EVERYONE should use it, since it's an 'I Win' button.

There is so much wrong with this, I don't know where to start.

Someone who relies on Permabuffs to win dies without them. Saying you can't get your buffs removed is an open challenge to find someone who can remove them for you...adn will do so, and then you do.

Except they cannot. Tinfoil Hats and Contingency, bro. LoE occurs whenever I want it to occur.

Schroedinger's wizard is theorycraft only. The game tends to play very differently. And if PC's abuse the rules for uberness, the DM should be doing so, as well...and the DM has many, many more tricks to play then any PC.

==Aelryinth   

You're adorable.

Now look up Uncanny Forethought.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 9:22PM, Vincent_Dranoch wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 5:17AM, Eld20Generalissimo wrote:

I'm sorry, but could you clearly present a situation with a moderate chance of occurance in which the Swiftblade's 6/10 casting, crappy prerequisites, full BAB *yay?*, and so-so buffs while hasted are better than the insanity that is the Incantatrix? I feel like a few of these would really help your case.

It's quite simple actually, you need to be an Evil character with 9 levels of Swiftblade and 3 of Incantatrix, the others levels are meant to fulfil requisites and improve this build's power (adding levels of good classes like Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, and just go to level 10 Swiftblade if you go epic because then you'll get 9th spells and Practiced Spellcaster will fix the 6/10 casting).

Without further ado:

Cast Masochism/Sadism spell from Book of Vile Darkness and then get i REALLY high Spellcraft check very easily, now you just need to cast any buff you want in yourself and turn them Persisted with Metamagic Effect from Incantatrix 3, and there is NO limit for that, while Cyclone_Joker's build relies on Instant Metamagic and Vestige Metamagic that will end after like 4 daily uses, still he acts like he could buff himself forever with his build.

I'm sorry, but do you understand how this game works? It is so trivially easy to raise skill checks. It's pathetic. And Metamagic Effect DOES have limited number of uses, which you'd know if you actuallly read the ability instead of parroting bad advice.

Now, the build I've made uses DMM(With Southern Magician to get Divine spells), Vestige Metamagic, Instant Metamagic, Residual Magic, and Metamagic Effect, for truly insane levels of persisting. Now, try to keep up. I'm trying to keep it simple, but I'm not sure I can make it slower for you.

It's not even necessary adding more Incantatrix levels after that unless you want Bonus Metamagic Feats, because all the others Incantatrix's abilities focus on aplying these metamagics, and you already can do that with ease through Masochism/Sadism + Metamagic Effect, so more levels of Incantatrix would be almost irrelevant in this case.

Good god, do you understand how this game works? Masochism and Sadism are irrelevent. Your  "build," if such a bad one can be called such, is wastin 9 levels and 3 CL on garbage.

If you don't wanna play as an Evil character you will have to:

1)Rely on CJ's build, which doesn't completely outclass Swiftblade like he says, but is better than Swiftblade about the buffing thing, still Swiftblade is better at other situations and CJ's free Persisted Spells runs out quickly (like 2 Instant Metamagic per day and 2 Vestige Metamagic);

And DMM, and Metamagic Effect, no, it has all your toys and better, and yes it does outclass the trashy swiftblade in EVERY respect.

2)Rely on other ways of getting high Spellcraft check, then pick up only 3 levels of Incantatrix and you are done, you even don't need to be a Swiftblade along with these 3 levels of Incantatrix, but higher Initiative + Extra Actions + 50% miss chance for ALL attakcs against you = REALLY useful.

All of those 'benefits" are either crap, or so easily replicatable that they aren't worth mentioning. And, no, a Swiftblade will NOT go first.

If you don't wanna Swiftblade then go with Dweomerkeeper, IotSV, Wyrm Wizard or something like that, but i believe i already made my point that is: Swiftblade abilities ARE good, and for someone like CJ who always talk about how 10 levels of Swiftblade are redundant/are not worth, is surprising that he takes all 10 levels of Incantatrix if it's possible to do better with just an Evil spell and 3 levels of the aforementioned class.

First off, Wyrm Wizard is not good enough to make that list with Dweomerkeeper and IotSFV. Second off, 10 levels of Incantatrix is good.  Any levels of Swiftblade is bad. Because it's a bad class that has no notable features.

I'm sorry, but do you understand how this game works? It is so trivially easy to raise skill checks.

Did i said anything different?

I even said if you don't want to be evil and rely on such spells, then you should rely on other ways of getting high Spellcraft.

And Metamagic Effect DOES have limited number of uses, which you'd know if you actuallly read the ability instead of parroting bad advice.

My bad, but 3+Int modifier is still more than your build (you have around 2 Instant Metamagic, 2 Vestige, and so on), and is easy to get high Int mod, so...

Now, the build I've made uses DMM(With Southern Magician to get Divine spells), Vestige Metamagic, Instant Metamagic, Residual Magic, and Metamagic Effect, for truly insane levels of persisting. Now, try to keep up. I'm trying to keep it simple, but I'm not sure I can make it slower for you.

All of it is irrelevant/redundant/not worth (except for Southern Magician that i can get for my builds too) because Metamagic Effect + High Spellcraft = You persist any spell in the game, you don't need to invest in a bunch of Instant and Vestige and such Metamagic.

Swiftblade in other way hasn't abilities that are redundant with Metamagic Effect, so it can still uses its maximum potencial and do not lose time improving your metamagic powers since you already has the best ability for that.

Good god, do you understand how this game works? Masochism and Sadism are irrelevent. Your  "build," if such a bad one can be called such, is wastin 9 levels and 3 CL on garbage.

Lol how contradictory you are, sometimes you says Incantatrix is awesome and now says 3 levels of it are garbage. And if these spells are irrelevant is irrelevant, i just used them as examples, any way of high Spellcraft check can do it.

All of those 'benefits" are either crap, or so easily replicatable that they aren't worth mentioning. And, no, a Swiftblade will NOT go first.

Which are replicatable? Polymorphing into a Choker to get an extra action? Buffing your Initiative to go first?

All of it is cumulative with Perpetual Options and Arcane Reflexes.

But Metamagic Effect + Instant Metamagic? They're not cumulative, Metamagic Effect already does the better that can be done.

First off, Wyrm Wizard is not good enough to make that list with Dweomerkeeper and IotSFV.

Whatever, it's just that the possibility of get any spell from any class is nice.

Nov 20, 2012 -- 10:06PM, Cyclone_Joker wrote:

Snip

Glad to see you made a build that has clipped wings and trouble meeting feat prerequisites, as well as getting pulled in ten directions. Elegance, man, elegance. Power trips only work if they are stylish and...well, can actually be pulled off.

CJ, the reason why you don't bring bag of holding or portable hole in a rope trick is explain in the spell itself, but you have to read the note at the end of it's description.

Then, contigency can't have a spell of more than 6 lv to be use when the conditions are met, and you can only have one on yourself at anytime.

By the way, what is your daily buff routine with your so called unkillable Incantatrix?

Ho and nice build for a lv ....40 character: "Wizard 1/Anima Mage 7/Incantatrix 10/Sacred Exorcist 1/Mindbender 1//Factotum 8/Telepath 12"

Nov 20, 2012 -- 10:58PM, Vincent_Dranoch wrote:

I'm sorry, but do you understand how this game works? It is so trivially easy to raise skill checks.

Did i said anything different?

I even said if you don't want to be evil and rely on such spells, then you should rely on other ways of getting high Spellcraft.

Which means your build has nothing over a standard incantatrix.

And Metamagic Effect DOES have limited number of uses, which you'd know if you actuallly read the ability instead of parroting bad advice.

My bad, but 3+Int modifier is still more than your build (you have around 2 Instant Metamagic, 2 Vestige, and so on), and is easy to get high Int mod, so...

It's a good thing the build I brought up can use it, too. 'Cuz, yanno, it's an Incantatrix class feature, and all?

Now, the build I've made uses DMM(With Southern Magician to get Divine spells), Vestige Metamagic, Instant Metamagic, Residual Magic, and Metamagic Effect, for truly insane levels of persisting. Now, try to keep up. I'm trying to keep it simple, but I'm not sure I can make it slower for you.

All of it is irrelevant/redundant/not worth (except for Southern Magician that i can get for my builds too) because Metamagic Effect + High Spellcraft = You persist any spell in the game, you don't need to invest in a bunch of Instant and Vestige and such Metamagic.

You cannot possibly be this dense.

Swiftblade in other way hasn't abilities that are redundant with Metamagic Effect, so it can still uses its maximum potencial and do not lose time improving your metamagic powers since you already has the best ability for that.

All of the swiftblade abilities are redundant. All are easily replicatable with buffs.

Good PrCs bring new abilities or enhance existing abilities. Swiftblade gives a lot of abilities the wizard already had, at the cost of a bunch of garbage feats, 10 levels, and 4 CL.

Good god, do you understand how this game works? Masochism and Sadism are irrelevent. Your  "build," if such a bad one can be called such, is wastin 9 levels and 3 CL on garbage.

Lol how contradictory you are, sometimes you says Incantatrix is awesome and now says 3 levels of it are garbage. And if these spells are irrelevant is irrelevant, i just used them as examples, any way of high Spellcraft check can do it.

You cannot POSSIBLY be this dense. 

The Swiftblade is what is garbage. Putting awesomeness onto garbage does not change the fact that the garbage is garbage. You gave up 9 levels and 3 CL for stuff the three levels of Incantatrix already gave you. 

All of those 'benefits" are either crap, or so easily replicatable that they aren't worth mentioning. And, no, a Swiftblade will NOT go first.

Which are replicatable? Polymorphing into a Choker to get an extra action? Buffing your Initiative to go first?

I'm not going to dignify this with a serious answer because you should already know how to break the action economy beyond repair as a wizard.

All of it is cumulative with Perpetual Options and Arcane Reflexes.

Which matters how, exactly? The three levels of Incantatrix will do all the work. These class features are trash.

But Metamagic Effect + Instant Metamagic? They're not cumulative, Metamagic Effect already does the better that can be done.

There is so much wrong with this the only reasonable response is 
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First off, Wyrm Wizard is not good enough to make that list with Dweomerkeeper and IotSFV.

Whatever, it's just that the possibility of get any spell from any class is nice.

Which is something Wizards already had. If you want more, don't waste time with Wyrm Wizard, just play a damn Mystic Theruge.

Nov 21, 2012 -- 12:03AM, Armisael wrote:

Nov 20, 2012 -- 10:06PM, Cyclone_Joker wrote:

Snip

Glad to see you made a build that has clipped wings and trouble meeting feat prerequisites, as well as getting pulled in ten directions. Elegance, man, elegance. Power trips only work if they are stylish and...well, can actually be pulled off.

Uh, no. Build is totally functional. The prereqs are totally easy to meet, and it functions perfectly. I fail to see anything wrong with it. 

Nov 21, 2012 -- 12:31AM, Scythal wrote:

CJ, the reason why you don't bring bag of holding or portable hole in a rope trick is explain in the spell itself, but you have to read the note at the end of it's description.

Which says nothing. Come back with some actual rules.

Then, contigency can't have a spell of more than 6 lv to be use when the conditions are met, and you can only have one on yourself at anytime.

You're adorable.

By the way, what is your daily buff routine with your so called unkillable Incantatrix?

Honestly, it depends on the power of the game. If you have a Weid engine, whatever the hell you need. If you don't, it'll still partially depend on your Divinations, but, for starters, Favor of the Martyr, Delay Death, and Beastland Ferocity, plus Lesser Vigor. Shapechange when at a sufficient level, obviously, Death Ward can be nifty as well, and, if you can actually afford it, at least one Pact of Return.

As for actual Wizard spells, all the miss-chance stacking, Greater Invis, and so on. Buff your allies, too. The fighter needs to feel useful every once and a while after all.

Ho and nice build for a lv ....40 character: "Wizard 1/Anima Mage 7/Incantatrix 10/Sacred Exorcist 1/Mindbender 1//Factotum 8/Telepath 12"

Gestalt build, bro. Try to keep up with the conversation.

CJ, you don't have many friends, do you? 

Nov 21, 2012 -- 5:48AM, draco1119 wrote:

CJ, you don't have many friends, do you?

More than you'd think, actually.

Nov 14, 2012 -- 7:25PM, chaoz wrote:

Yeah I know ECL 24 is crazy. But I am very excited and got pigeonholed a lot by the choices. I am making a wizard type guy, can some one help me with it? I know it will be focused specialist, with some levels of archmage. But what else to throw in? Also, DM is very experienced and strict on "broken things", so I am making a powerful but not broken char.

Thanks a lot!

Chaoz 

And the purpose of that post, Sir Spamsalot?

Nov 21, 2012 -- 5:27AM, Cyclone_Joker wrote:

Which says nothing. Come back with some actual rules.

Take a look at the note:

It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.

Sure, the bag of holding is a nondimensional item, but you wouldn't be able to rope trick into another.    

Gestalt build, bro. Try to keep up with the conversation.

Not everyone has knowledge of gestalt rules, especially since it's a variant rule that comes from a book full of variants.

Nov 21, 2012 -- 2:11PM, Alsebra wrote:

Nov 21, 2012 -- 5:27AM, Cyclone_Joker wrote:

Which says nothing. Come back with some actual rules.

Take a look at the note:

It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.

Sure, the bag of holding is a nondimensional item, but you wouldn't be able to rope trick into another.

I see nothing in the passage you quoted that says anything rules-wise. Now, if it said "It is hazarous blah blah blah; if an extradimensional space is brought into or created in another, blah blah blah," you'd have something. But, it isn't. Therefore, there are no problems nesting Rope Tricks.

Gestalt build, bro. Try to keep up with the conversation.

Not everyone has knowledge of gestalt rules, especially since it's a variant rule that comes from a book full of variants.

Except that Gestalt was specifically referenced by name, and the build was in standard Gestalt format. It's his own fault for not knowing at that point.

Which means your build has nothing over a standard incantatrix.

Yes it has, because it does not need 10 levels of Incantatrix for being God at buffing & persisting, it only needs Metamagic Effect.

It's a good thing the build I brought up can use it, too. 'Cuz, yanno, it's an Incantatrix class feature, and all?

You just need Metamagic Effect.

All of the swiftblade abilities are redundant. All are easily replicatable with buffs.

Good PrCs bring new abilities or enhance existing abilities. Swiftblade gives a lot of abilities the wizard already had, at the cost of a bunch of garbage feats, 10 levels, and 4 CL.

Replicatable abilities are one thing, cumulative abilities are another. All the abilities Wizard already has aren't replacing Swiftblade abilities, they stack, what means, they enhance existing abilities exactly like you said.

Which matters how, exactly? The three levels of Incantatrix will do all the work. These class features are trash.

Exactly, the three levels of Incantatrix will do all the buffing & persisting work, what means other Incantatrix abilities are replicatable with Metamagic Effect, what means you don't need more levels of Incantatrix.

Swiftblade in another way doesn't have replicatable abilities, but cumulative. All the spells that do the same as Swiftblade can stack with Swiftblade abilities, with Blink and Wannabe + Evasive Celerity being the only exception.

Talking about Incantatrix, its Metamagic Effect does the same job as Instant Metamagic and such, but much better, so who is spending class levels with redundancy is you.

And no, i don't think 10 levels of Incantatrix are garbage, i'm just trying to use your twisted logic.

There is so much wrong with this the only reasonable response is 
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Nice champz, you're running out of arguments.

Which is something Wizards already had. If you want more, don't waste time with Wyrm Wizard, just play a damn Mystic Theruge.

The point is that Wyrm Wizard can get ANY spell. For instance:

Wizard/Archvist/Mystic Theurge can get any divine spell and almost all arcane spells, but it can't achieve spells like Arcane Fusion, Arcane Spellsurge, Greater Arcane Fusion, and others exclusive spells from Sorcerer and other arcane classes.

Notice how he's ignoring that his Rope Trick trick is utterly trashed, and he missed it. At the levels you use Rope Trick, sticking a big bonfire underneath it to fill it with smoke and heat should work fine, or the people suffocate within. SPell limitations, ya know.

oh, and sorry, the feat is Called Dimensional Spell here? THe one that lets you strike at extradimensional, ethereal, and incorporeal targets without them manifesting on the prime? Thus, you can bombard people in extradimensional spaces without them being able to do anything back to you. 

Tinfoil hats work right up until someone spends 1k gp and throws a packet of dust of dispelling against your chest, whereupon you are immediately trapped inside your own bloody protective hat with your personal A-M shell, at which time they carve through it and waste you. Or maybe thy just walk up to you and trigger it while standing in your face, and your hat comes down and you're trapped inside an A-M shell with a swiftblade gish, still hasted.

Seriously, dumb tactic.

Contingent spells activate AFTER something has happened, not before. They are not-preemptive, and have no capacity to make detect events that have not happened, make rational decisions, anticipate, or make judgement calls. Eesh. Classic spellcaster error, allowing Contingent spells to do more then they are capable of.

Craft Contingent Spell is not a Contingency spell. It's a magic item rendered as one shot spellcasting, and follows all the rules thereby. Trying to present it as a spell, not a Crafting feat, is quite precious of you. You're effectively saying, the instant you quote this feat, that "I have whatever magic item I choose to have at whatever time I choose to hate it."

i.e. Schroedinger's Artificer, by way of Craft Contingent. Precious, precious of you. Totally wrong, but precious. 

And trying to ignore the fact that if Celerity wins all fights, anyone with more then a 3 Int will have a celerity effect at hand, is wonderfully obfuscatory of you. Do continue with the closemindedness, and keep that hand on your face. Maybe you can see better with it that way.  

==Aelryinth           

Since VD obviously doesn't understand how the build works, and probably not even how the GAME works, as well as his apparent thought that only Swiftblades get Metamagic Effect, I think I'm done with him.

Nov 22, 2012 -- 10:14AM, aelryinth wrote:

Notice how he's ignoring that his Rope Trick trick is utterly trashed, and he missed it. At the levels you use Rope Trick, sticking a big bonfire underneath it to fill it with smoke and heat should work fine, or the people suffocate within. SPell limitations, ya know.

Oh, you're adorable.

First off, there's the issue of locating the Rope Trick. Second of all, you're assuming that a level 8+ wizard has no protections against this. So, what level is it that this wizard will be fighting enemies with rapid, highly powerful divinations that can cross planes?

oh, and sorry, the feat is Called Dimensional Spell here? THe one that lets you strike at extradimensional, ethereal, and incorporeal targets without them manifesting on the prime? Thus, you can bombard people in extradimensional spaces without them being able to do anything back to you.

Oh, you mean Transdimensional Spell? You mean the one that is total crap and nobody ever takes unless they decide they specifically need when running around in a Metamagic Storm?

Tinfoil hats work right up until someone spends 1k gp and throws a packet of dust of dispelling against your chest, whereupon you are immediately trapped inside your own bloody protective hat with your personal A-M shell, at which time they carve through it and waste you. Or maybe thy just walk up to you and trigger it while standing in your face, and your hat comes down and you're trapped inside an A-M shell with a swiftblade gish, still hasted.

Seriously, dumb tactic.

First off, source? Second off, acting like a wizard would actually get hit by something? With AC high enough, and over a 95% miss chance? Okay

Contingent spells activate AFTER something has happened, not before.

Incorrect. They can be set up like readied actions.

They are not-preemptive, and have no capacity to make detect events that have not happened, make rational decisions, anticipate, or make judgement calls. Eesh. Classic spellcaster error, allowing Contingent spells to do more then they are capable of.

Wrong. You just obviously have no idea how to word things.

Craft Contingent Spell is not a Contingency spell. It's a magic item rendered as one shot spellcasting, and follows all the rules thereby. Trying to present it as a spell, not a Crafting feat, is quite precious of you. You're effectively saying, the instant you quote this feat, that "I have whatever magic item I choose to have at whatever time I choose to hate it."

i.e. Schroedinger's Artificer, by way of Craft Contingent. Precious, precious of you. Totally wrong, but precious.

Wrong. Wizards have no feat at level 12, just as Druids don't have one at 6. They instead get Craft Contingent Spell. 

And how adorable! You're acting like crafting actually COSTS anything.

Pro tip: Crafting has a flat cost of 20,000 GP and 500 XP. As much crafting as you could possibly want costs exactly that much.

And trying to ignore the fact that if Celerity wins all fights, anyone with more then a 3 Int will have a celerity effect at hand, is wonderfully obfuscatory of you. Do continue with the closemindedness, and keep that hand on your face. Maybe you can see better with it that way.  

==Aelryinth           

There is so wrong here, I don't know where to start.

Simple Build?

Vacuum The Cleaner
Commoner 23 / Thrallherd 1 ... a little attention to Knowledge (Religion)
known to mutter under his(her/its) breath: "I'm bad, I'm bad, you know it."

Nov 22, 2012 -- 9:01PM, Cyclone_Joker wrote:

Since VD obviously doesn't understand how the build works, and probably not even how the GAME works, as well as his apparent thought that only Swiftblades get Metamagic Effect, I think I'm done with him.

Nov 22, 2012 -- 10:14AM, aelryinth wrote:

Notice how he's ignoring that his Rope Trick trick is utterly trashed, and he missed it. At the levels you use Rope Trick, sticking a big bonfire underneath it to fill it with smoke and heat should work fine, or the people suffocate within. SPell limitations, ya know.

Oh, you're adorable.

First off, there's the issue of locating the Rope Trick. Second of all, you're assuming that a level 8+ wizard has no protections against this. So, what level is it that this wizard will be fighting enemies with rapid, highly powerful divinations that can cross planes?

oh, and sorry, the feat is Called Dimensional Spell here? THe one that lets you strike at extradimensional, ethereal, and incorporeal targets without them manifesting on the prime? Thus, you can bombard people in extradimensional spaces without them being able to do anything back to you.

Oh, you mean Transdimensional Spell? You mean the one that is total crap and nobody ever takes unless they decide they specifically need when running around in a Metamagic Storm?

Tinfoil hats work right up until someone spends 1k gp and throws a packet of dust of dispelling against your chest, whereupon you are immediately trapped inside your own bloody protective hat with your personal A-M shell, at which time they carve through it and waste you. Or maybe thy just walk up to you and trigger it while standing in your face, and your hat comes down and you're trapped inside an A-M shell with a swiftblade gish, still hasted.

Seriously, dumb tactic.

First off, source? Second off, acting like a wizard would actually get hit by something? With AC high enough, and over a 95% miss chance? Okay

Contingent spells activate AFTER something has happened, not before.

Incorrect. They can be set up like readied actions.

They are not-preemptive, and have no capacity to make detect events that have not happened, make rational decisions, anticipate, or make judgement calls. Eesh. Classic spellcaster error, allowing Contingent spells to do more then they are capable of.

Wrong. You just obviously have no idea how to word things.

Craft Contingent Spell is not a Contingency spell. It's a magic item rendered as one shot spellcasting, and follows all the rules thereby. Trying to present it as a spell, not a Crafting feat, is quite precious of you. You're effectively saying, the instant you quote this feat, that "I have whatever magic item I choose to have at whatever time I choose to hate it."

i.e. Schroedinger's Artificer, by way of Craft Contingent. Precious, precious of you. Totally wrong, but precious.

Wrong. Wizards have no feat at level 12, just as Druids don't have one at 6. They instead get Craft Contingent Spell. 

And how adorable! You're acting like crafting actually COSTS anything.

Pro tip: Crafting has a flat cost of 20,000 GP and 500 XP. As much crafting as you could possibly want costs exactly that much.

And trying to ignore the fact that if Celerity wins all fights, anyone with more then a 3 Int will have a celerity effect at hand, is wonderfully obfuscatory of you. Do continue with the closemindedness, and keep that hand on your face. Maybe you can see better with it that way.  

==Aelryinth           

There is so wrong here, I don't know where to start.

Oh, you're precious.

You're saying that all wizards use Rope Trick, and yet obvously nobody knows anything about Rope Trick. Why all the footprints come to this one point and vanish. Why Detect Magic shows a swirl in the air. Why a DC 20 Spot check can tell there's something up there.

And even more precious, assuming all wizards at level 8 have Resist Energy/Fire AND protection against suffocation in place.

Precious, indeed!    

As for Transdimensional SPell: You mean that feat that becomes EXTREMELY USEFUL when every wizard and their mother is holed up in extradimensional spaces and thinks they are the perfect defense? And which can be made into a lesser Metamagic Rod for a low, low cost to bedevil idiotic wizards with?

That feat? Oh, let's just poo-poo the cheap and easy way to defeat my blatant Rope Trick effect that everyone uses but nobody knows about. Oh, how darling.   

Oh, and the wizard never gets hit. All those things that have True Seeing, blindsense, tremorsense, spot checks through the roof, and all the enemy NPC's that can have whatever the DM wants, striking at a guy whose Touch AC isn't going to mean much once his miss chances are totally foiled, and whose AC is then absolutely in the toilet once he's in an A-M shell. Because we all know that every wizard uses magic to buff his AC and do miss chances, but nobody knows that's what the wizard does, so he must be invulnerable.

That precious wizard. Yes. As if people won't find ways to overcome the wizard's defenses, generally with far less effort then he spent putting them up.

And then with Contingent Spell! Which, unfortunately is not a magic item, and so Wish cannot duplicate it.  And Contingent SPells respond to things, you precious boy, they don't anticipate them. they have no capability to anticipate, you have to word them to respond to what happens, not what is going to happen...it's right there in the spell description. I would love to see some of your darling wording of all these Contingent spells you have infinite amounts of, just so you could watch them get flushed down the toilet.  I would also love to see how you replace them so very, very quickly after they get expended...no, wait, I'm sure you use the 5 minute adventuring day and leave the world to burn if your precious contingencies go off and leave you bereft. Yes, that sounds like the smart Schroedinger's wizard play.

And then you bring up the whole idea that Wish can take the place of all Item Creation feats, and then look down on people creating Celerity items wholesale to deal with the Celerity "I Win" button. It appears that only precious people like you are allowed to abuse the rules wholesale with rules-bending, while making simple wondrous items with Celerity are not allowed because they'd disrupt your wonderful worldview.

What a precious chi-er, wizard you are. The rest of the world is totally stupid and could NEVER figure out how to overcome the defenses that obviously every single spellcaster in the world must use, because they are the One True Way.

==Aelryinth             

Ael...

Nov 23, 2012 -- 5:28PM, draco1119 wrote:

Ael...

Gotta say I feel as though what you're purporting as simple and easy ways to deal with low level spells such as Rope Trick has a rather major flaw Ael, namely the fact that the wizard isn't about to look at the fire being built under his cozy nook and say "Well, looks like it's over,I mean they built a FIRE man." There are any number of magical ways to prevent such a silly death, even at low levels. What kind of tracks do you leave as you FLY away for your life? What kind of wizard that's not trying to die wouldn't ALSO pick up a metamagic rod that aparently everyone who ever thinks they'll face a wizard will have? Oh of course that monster will all those crazy senses will be a real threat when it negates miss chance to kill the wizard....'s Astral Projection that his planar bound Nightmare was nice enough to hook him up with.

For the most part your suggestions seem like they'd work fairly well against any poorly played wizard. However that's not to say that with a large amount of preperation and equal part large amount of luck that it wouldn't be possible to kill a competently played, built, and paranoid wizard. I just prefer calling it is what it is most of the time, a vindictive DM. Of course it could go back and forth all day with you suggesting more "Obvious" counters and others suggesting more "Obvious" defenses. The real point is that a so-so (make no mistake, it's a fun and flavorful class) gish prc has little place in an optimized wizard build.

Nov 23, 2012 -- 4:56PM, aelryinth wrote:

Oh, you're precious.

You're saying that all wizards use Rope Trick, and yet obvously nobody knows anything about Rope Trick. Why all the footprints come to this one point and vanish. Why Detect Magic shows a swirl in the air. Why a DC 20 Spot check can tell there's something up there.

Footprints?  Every wizard and their entire party has been flying all say for several levels by the time Rope Trick is viable to sleep in.

Oh, and the Spot check doesn't work. Sorry, DC20 is only for invisible creatures, and, last I checked, the Rope Trick is not a creature.

And even more precious, assuming all wizards at level 8 have Resist Energy/Fire AND protection against suffocation in place.

Uh, yeah. Basic protections.

Precious, indeed!    

As for Transdimensional SPell: You mean that feat that becomes EXTREMELY USEFUL when every wizard and their mother is holed up in extradimensional spaces and thinks they are the perfect defense? And which can be made into a lesser Metamagic Rod for a low, low cost to bedevil idiotic wizards with?

Oh, yes. You put it in a Metamagic Rod and laugh maniacally as you shoot a low-level jank spell off that's probably beaten by the wizard's defenses. Not to mention the possibility of dummy Rope Tricks. 

Extra dimensional sleeping isn't for protection, it's for not being detected. And I'm having trouble seeing a nice, precise divination that will let you track the wizard before said wizard gains protections to beat them.

And, of course, all of this falls apart once this Wizard has a cleric buddy or reaches level 13(Or is a SCM), and gets himself Plane Shift, and so just nests Rope Tricks and seals the first one behind him.

That feat? Oh, let's just poo-poo the cheap and easy way to defeat my blatant Rope Trick effect that everyone uses but nobody knows about. Oh, how darling.  

Yeah, that crappy feat.

Oh, and the wizard never gets hit. All those things that have True Seeing, blindsense, tremorsense, spot checks through the roof, and all the enemy NPC's that can have whatever the DM wants, striking at a guy whose Touch AC isn't going to mean much once his miss chances are totally foiled, and whose AC is then absolutely in the toilet once he's in an A-M shell. Because we all know that every wizard uses magic to buff his AC and do miss chances, but nobody knows that's what the wizard does, so he must be invulnerable.

Okay, True Seeing only helps against some of the miss chances. Not against the smoking spiked gauntlet that every wizard carries around. Blindsense and Tremorsense don't help against most of the protections, anyways. So, you bring in a heavily-buffed creature with a bunch of exotic senses, and you'll still be running into a 80+% miss chance. And that's not counting the stacked Mithril Chahar Aina, Dastana, and Twilight Chain Shirt that most wizards wear.

And your AMF won't help against the tinfoil hat.

So, you have no way of penetrating the wizard's defenses, or catching him unprepared.

That precious wizard. Yes. As if people won't find ways to overcome the wizard's defenses, generally with far less effort then he spent putting them up.

All these ways which you have yet to show work. Okay.

And then with Contingent Spell! Which, unfortunately is not a magic item, and so Wish cannot duplicate it.  And Contingent SPells respond to things, you precious boy, they don't anticipate them. they have no capability to anticipate, you have to word them to respond to what happens, not what is going to happen...it's right there in the spell description. I would love to see some of your darling wording of all these Contingent spells you have infinite amounts of, just so you could watch them get flushed down the toilet.  I would also love to see how you replace them so very, very quickly after they get expended...no, wait, I'm sure you use the 5 minute adventuring day and leave the world to burn if your precious contingencies go off and leave you bereft. Yes, that sounds like the smart Schroedinger's wizard play.

Oh, you're adorable. You obviously have no idea how the game works. Or how to work contingencies. Or play a Wizard.

See, here's a funny thing: If you're smart, contingencies will only work when you need them, basically if you're caught with your pants down or fighting something actually threatening, basically another wizard. Contingencies do not go off as part of your average adventuring day. Or, they wouldn't if you weren't a drooling idiot.

And then you bring up the whole idea that Wish can take the place of all Item Creation feats, and then look down on people creating Celerity items wholesale to deal with the Celerity "I Win" button. It appears that only precious people like you are allowed to abuse the rules wholesale with rules-bending, while making simple wondrous items with Celerity are not allowed because they'd disrupt your wonderful worldview.

Where did I mention Wish?

What a precious chi-er, wizard you are. The rest of the world is totally stupid and could NEVER figure out how to overcome the defenses that obviously every single spellcaster in the world must use, because they are the One True Way.

==Aelryinth             

Actually, they can't without some pretty extreme measures. That's why every wizard uses them. Your arguments all rely on someone else figuring it out. None of your solutions work. The only way to actually beat a wizard is through another, more prepared wizard.

Or, in other words, what EDG said.

As you've mentioned before, Smoking is 3.0, and so is not commonly used. And you've still never bothered stating in what book it's found.
Also... What the hell is "chahar aina, dastana" armor? Are those special materials, enchantments, what?

Nov 24, 2012 -- 8:16AM, draco1119 wrote:

As you've mentioned before, Smoking is 3.0, and so is not commonly used.

Irrelevent. 3.0 got granfathered in, unless specifically replaced or changed.

And you've still never bothered stating in what book it's found.

Lords of Darkness. Great book, if a bit overpowered. Especially that damned Sky Mage.

Also... What the hell is "chahar aina, dastana" armor? Are those special materials, enchantments, what?

Sigh...

Chahar Aina is from Oriental Adventures. It provides +1 Armor bonus that specifically stacks with a couple types of armor, most notably the chain shirt. Dastana is from the A&EG, and is quite similar, except stacks with everything.

Oh, my, and now our darling poster is moving the goalposts around!

Somehow, despite the fact he's always been using Rope Trick, he's now deferring it to level 8 when he can sleep through the night.

And somehow, the ENTIRE PARTY CAN FLY ALL DAY by this level.

And all he has the money to automatically have all the proper defenses for whatever you throw at him without straining his magical capability.

He natters on about an 80% miss chance that is actually zero, because he won't support it.

And doesn't realize the DC 20 spot check is for invisible objects, too.  Not to mention a simple Detect Magic. And people suspecting it's there. Oh, right, nobody knows that all wizards use Rope Trick. Got it!

Then, he's going to NEST TWO EXTRA-DIMENSIONAL SPACES!!!!! LOL. And somehow not be obliterated.

And THEN, we magically jump to level 13, and he must not be uber, because now he's relying on the cleric in the party!!!  And as we all know, Plane shift, that wonderfully accurate transportation spell that sets you down somewhere within a couple hundred miles of your destination. Yeah. I mean, c'mon, if you're going to do that, just say you're going to teleport home at night, right?

He's tossing out 'Contingency will do this and that' without daring to provide wording of all these delicious can't-fail contingency spells.

He doesn't realize that everyone and their mother now knows about the tinfoil hat, and will put the a-m shell up on him point-blank, not go running up with it already active. Leaving him trapped inside his own un-polymorphed hat inside an a-m shell, waitinig for his enemies to sunder it and him. Dust of negation bulb on an arrowhead from a missile guy with improved precise shot, ignoring all miss chances, yay!   

Of course, he's only going to have such a hat in the late 1/3rd of the game, but Dust of Negation is available considerably before then.  

===========

In other words, there are things wizards can do, and by now, they are rote. On the flip side, people of that level messing with wizards know the wizards can do that stuff, and pull it off.

Astral Projection means you are vulnerable to anything that hedges out extraplanars...plus you can get dispelled, or dismissed. One spell of much lower level to counter your spell.

And you're relying on a nightmare to do that? oooookay...

The problem iwth being paranoid is that when the people really are out to get you, they know the defenses you'll use and they will overcome them, and they don't have to go to extremes...they just have to have the right spells. While said paranoid wizard has to spend copious amounts of time, money, xp to try and have those defenses in place, while his enemies can take them and him down that much quicker.

Schroedinger wizard is theory-craft. With unlimited time and money and crafting ability, of course anything is possible. Unfortunately, wizards live in the real world with everyone else, and and it just isn't that easy.

==Aelryinth                            

Nov 24, 2012 -- 4:52PM, aelryinth wrote:

Oh, my, and now our darling poster is moving the goalposts around!

Uh, nope.

Somehow, despite the fact he's always been using Rope Trick, he's now deferring it to level 8 when he can sleep through the night.

Duh. That's when it's used. Are you dense?

And somehow, the ENTIRE PARTY CAN FLY ALL DAY by this level.

Jesus, do you know anything about optimization? Persisted Swift Fly, bro. 

And all he has the money to automatically have all the proper defenses for whatever you throw at him without straining his magical capability.

Spells are cheap.

He natters on about an 80% miss chance that is actually zero, because he won't support it.

You cannot be this dense. Let's look at a set of core-only buffs for sweetums, here. Blink, Displacement, and Mirror Image all come to mind. So, that tops 80%. Which, of couse, you've provided no way to beat, so you really have no room to talk. Beat that list, and then I'll bring out the fun toys.

And doesn't realize the DC 20 spot check is for invisible objects, too.

Uh, no.

A Spot check result higher than 20 generally lets you become aware of an invisible creature near you, though you can’t actually see it.

See, I can act like an arrogant douche because I'm right. You are not. So please, stop embarassing yourself.

Not to mention a simple Detect Magic. And people suspecting it's there. Oh, right, nobody knows that all wizards use Rope Trick. Got it!

Which is why Boccob gave Wizards Fly. And Stone Shape. And Polymorph. And any number of other easy ways to hide.

Then, he's going to NEST TWO EXTRA-DIMENSIONAL SPACES!!!!! LOL. And somehow not be obliterated.

Show me where it says that nesting two Rope Tricks will obliterate someone. I'm waiting.

And THEN, we magically jump to level 13, and he must not be uber, because now he's relying on the cleric in the party!!!  And as we all know, Plane shift, that wonderfully accurate transportation spell that sets you down somewhere within a couple hundred miles of your destination. Yeah. I mean, c'mon, if you're going to do that, just say you're going to teleport home at night, right?

What? Now you're just babbling. Please, do calm down your impotent rage long enough to form a coherent sentence.

He's tossing out 'Contingency will do this and that' without daring to provide wording of all these delicious can't-fail contingency spells.

Because I have better things to do. If you can't figure out how to word contingencies, it's hardly my problem. Just don't assume everyone is as... challenged... as you.

He doesn't realize that everyone and their mother now knows about the tinfoil hat, and will put the a-m shell up on him point-blank, not go running up with it already active. Leaving him trapped inside his own un-polymorphed hat inside an a-m shell, waitinig for his enemies to sunder it and him. Dust of negation bulb on an arrowhead from a missile guy with improved precise shot, ignoring all miss chances, yay!

First off, Dust of Negation doesn't work that way. Please read the rules. When activated, it creates an AMF in a 10' spread from the point of origin. So the whole "shooting it" idea doesn't work.

Even if it did work, Displacement, Blink, and Mirror Image are not affected as Blink and Displacement are not "less than" total concealment(In fact, one of them is total concealment), and Mirror Image is not, in fact, a miss chance, just something very similar and almost as good. So, no. You wouldn't hit the wizard.

Of course, he's only going to have such a hat in the late 1/3rd of the game, but Dust of Negation is available considerably before then.  

Please stop, you're just embarassing yourself. If you'd pay attention to the rules, you'd know that Shrink Item is a third-level spell. So, in reality, it comes into effect a bit before one can reasonably spend 3300GP on a one-shot item, especially one that doesn't work like you think.

===========
In other words, there are things wizards can do, and by now, they are rote. On the flip side, people of that level messing with wizards know the wizards can do that stuff, and pull it off.

Astral Projection means you are vulnerable to anything that hedges out extraplanars...plus you can get dispelled, or dismissed. One spell of much lower level to counter your spell.

And you're relying on a nightmare to do that? oooookay...

First off, the Nightmare's Astral Projection is a SU ability. No Dispel. Second off, it's a fifth-level spell. Third, I really don't see anything you can try to pull that isn't easily beat by the slightest bit of preparation.

The problem iwth being paranoid is that when the people really are out to get you, they know the defenses you'll use and they will overcome them, and they don't have to go to extremes...they just have to have the right spells. While said paranoid wizard has to spend copious amounts of time, money, xp to try and have those defenses in place, while his enemies can take them and him down that much quicker.

No. Wrong. Those defenses are what are used because those defenses are what works.

Schroedinger wizard is theory-craft. With unlimited time and money and crafting ability, of course anything is possible. Unfortunately, wizards live in the real world with everyone else, and and it just isn't that easy.

Uncanny Forethought and the Thought Bottle beg to differ. Schrondinger's Wizard is. 

It is that easy. If it were real, wizards probably wouldn't actually fight, but sit down with their rivals in some very comfy chairs with some nice tea and compare their lists of contingencies, because any combat between them would be both incredibly lethal and incredibly expensive. But nothing short of a wizard would be able to trigger said contingencies. Because wizards are that much better than everything else, short of Archivists, Artificers, and Warlocks at this level

==Aelryinth                            

Must you do this after every post? We can all see your avvy and username. 

CJ, I'm giving serious consideration to buying you a copy of How to Win Friends and Influence People. Cuz you kinda suck at it, y'know?

Since VD obviously doesn't understand how the build works, and probably not even how the GAME works, as well as his apparent thought that only Swiftblades get Metamagic Effect, I think I'm done with him.

And obviously you don't know how to read because i never said that only Swiftblade gets Metamagic Effect, what i said is that i'm getting 3 levels of Incantatrix to make the build work while you are spending 10 levels of Incantatrix to do the same thing a level 3 does.

Nov 23, 2012 -- 8:14PM, Andarious-Rosethorn wrote:

Nov 23, 2012 -- 5:28PM, draco1119 wrote:

Ael...

Nov 25, 2012 -- 4:37AM, Vincent_Dranoch wrote:

Since VD obviously doesn't understand how the build works, and probably not even how the GAME works, as well as his apparent thought that only Swiftblades get Metamagic Effect, I think I'm done with him.

And obviously you don't know how to read because i never said that only Swiftblade gets Metamagic Effect, what i said is that i'm getting 3 levels of Incantatrix to make the build work while you are spending 10 levels of Incantatrix to do the same thing a level 3 does.

Totally relying on Metamagic Effect for your buff routine not only removes flexibility, but loses out on the absurd versatility of Metamagic Effect, and limits your number of buffs/day. Furthermore, Metamagic Effect is only useful on persistable buffs. My build has a wider range of useful buffs, because it can make use of the various ways to make non-persistable spells persistable. Versatility is why wizards are god. Mine is more versatile. Therefore, mine is superior.

Also, the use of swiftblade in the build is a drag. So many better options. So, please, learn the game.

Totally relying on Metamagic Effect for your buff routine not only removes flexibility,

 

No, it doesn't. The flexibility of Metamagic Effect by itself is already much better and wider than Instant Metamagic's flexibility. Adding Instant and Vestige Metamagic on the build doesn't do anything that Metamagic Effect can't do.

but loses out on the absurd versatility of Metamagic Effect,

You don't lose anything, i don't know from where did you get that idea. Metamagic Effect's versatility is the same with or without Instant Metamagic because it does the same Instant does but better, so adding Instant doesn't do anything new.

and limits your number of buffs/day.

3+Int mod per day isn't limited, it's more than your daily uses of Instant and Vestige Metamagic.

Furthermore, Metamagic Effect is only useful on persistable buffs. My build has a wider range of useful buffs, because it can make use of the various ways to make non-persistable spells persistable.

Turning Non-Persistable Spells into Persistables there is NOTHING to do with Metamagic Effect, Instant Metamagic or such. These Incantatrix's abilities will only help to Persist spells after you make them someway persistable, so you're still wasting 10 levels for something you can do with 3, sorry.

I've removed content from this thread. Trolling/baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct, as is use of profanity

You can review the Code of Conduct here: company.wizards.com/conduct

Please remember to keep your posts polite, on topic and refrain from personal attacks. You are free to disagree with one another as long as it is done in a respectful manner.

OMG, he actually resorted To the THOUGHT BOTTLE.

LOLOLOLOL. That, my friends, is the sign of a really weak argument.

Do tell me how you're going to cast 4 Persistent Swift Fly spells at level 8 on other people. What's the level pre-req for Incantatrix? Oh, you can't DO this trick until you are an Incantatrix...if the DM allows the PrC! Hey, great, ALL WIZARDS ARE NOW INCANTATRIXES regardless of what the DM says!

Kewl! But I suppose that's not all that bad, because he's using over half his Persistents on spells for others! Um, what other hundreds of buffs are you keeping on yourself at level 8, now?

Then explain to me why every other wizard in the world isn't doing the exact same thing as you, and everyone over the level of 8 isn't flying all the time.

Oh, look! He pulled out the trifecta of blink (Detect Invis, Ghost touch stops cold), Displacement (an illusion easily defeated by multiple senses) and Mirror Image (foiled by Tremorsense, blindsight, detect Illusion, true Sight, Mindsight). I was expecting invisibility, but Detect Invis and the other divs thwart that, too, not to mention simple Spot checks.

The rules state very clearly that putting one extra-dimensional space inside another is a very bad thing. ANd you're going to be dumb enough to CREATE one? You deserve what happens to you. And WHAM, his wizards all start their adventuring career at 8th level, too! Isn't that convenient!
Note: Once again, not bothering to look at the rules RIGHT IN THE Rope Trick SPELL IN THE SRD.
To Wit: Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one. 

But he thought that since he was 'creating one', instead of maybe 'carrying one' (that got shot down earlier, remember?), he could get away with it. 

And he has unlimited spell capacity, because 'spells are cheap'. Righto, baby-o. It's darling how Schroedinger's Wizard gets to hand wave little things like cash, time and spells per day, isn't it?             

And naturally he won't define any of his contingencies, because he knows they will get shot down. Every Schroedinger's Wizard with Contingents I've ever seen that actually defined his conditions put his foot in his mouth hard as the language was torn apart, or so open ended getting attacked by a mosquito set it off. There were about a dozen or two on my Lockdown thread, and NONE of them worked. Actually, I think that's where the 'vs anti-magic hat' first became a meme, or close to it.

Astral Projection by a mage is subject to a dispel, as it is a spell. The one by a nightmare is subject to all the others. DO keep up.

Sticking a packet of dust of Negation into a bulb on an arrow or as a sling bullet to explode when it hits an object will trigger it just fine, and create the 'mage hoisted by his own petard' effect quite nicely, thank you.  Optionally, the person can just run up to you and throw it in the air while in your face. Guess what? Your hat will drop down around the two of you. Things might get a little squishy. Alternatively, they could, you know, push it off to one side, and you're still in the A-M shell, and probably starting a grapple with a superior opponent.

And now he's trying to argue that because the rules only mention invisible creatures, spot checks can't possibly see invisible objects, either. Oh, how rich. And consistently avoiding the idea that the portal is magical and easily detected.  Also, you were kind enough to quote HALF the rule, attempting to mislead everyone, to wit: A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40).   Now, I'm not sure where a gaping magical portal holds on there, but it's definitely one of those. Since most magical portals are protrayed as swirling pools, I'm probably guessing a 30; in motion, but not 'moving'.

Oh, oh, he's using SHRINK ITEM now for his 'tinfoil hat'. Did you even bother to read the spell description? No?
You DO realize that it has a volume limit of 2 cu feet/level?
A human body is going to require a minimum of 12 cubic feet to fit comfortably within a properly shaped container, and a tinfoil hat is not a properly shaped container. The reason I used polymorph any object is because you could transform a proper barrier device into a comfortable hat. How exactly are you going to be wearing this shrunken item of rather past your level in cubic volume comfortably?
In gaming terms, you have to have an object that completely envelopes your space to stop an emnation from reaching you.
Furthermore, it has to be sturdier then armor or a shield, on the level of a Tower Shield, to provide the needed level of TOTAL COVER deferment, otherwise it's just considered a part of you (akin to throwing a sheet over yourself) and doesn't do the job.
So, at level 75, when you can Shrink Item an object that blocks out a 5x5x6 space to provide Total Cover for you, look us up. Or, you know, wait until you're level 15, 3/4 of the game is done, and you can actually pull off this trick that won't protect you once the AM center is inside your own hat trapping you.

Come now...your arguments are sprouting more holes then a gopher colony. Why don't you go back and do some studying, and come back with some trite optimization rules that might actually work, and don't involve totally broken magical objects that no sane DM will put into his game?  
Seriously, you're the first person to even mention the Thought Bottle on these boards in years. Doing so is pure munchkin power gaming, NOT optimization. It's considered on a par with actually letting some of the Pun-Pun and sarluk mechanics actually work.

And I've been signing my name this way for ten years on these boards. If you don't like it, tough. When people start whining about miniscule things, it's a sheer sign they are losing an argument.

==Aelryinth

Awl, since CJ just got a ride on the bannedwagon for trolling, you might want to tone it down. I realize I'm not an ORC, but you were tiptoeing down the line between snark and troll, IMHO.

A couple questions, though: A) What is this "tinfoil hat" that keeps getting mentioned? I understand the term in RL parlance, but I seem to be lost when it's used in D&D.
B) What is the thought bottle? Tempest brought it up as "extra action cheese" in a thread a few weeks back, but I've never heard/seen the term before that.

It's hardly someone else's fault that you mistook a clear Thought Bottle reference for the wish spell and then proceeded to continue to remain oblivious to that fact for a number of pages. It's also somewhat of a sticking point, for me at least, that you seem to be claiming the easiest way to deal with all-powerful-spellcasters are spells and egro as they're so easily beaten then clearly they're not-so-all-powerful which is rather silly. Also as a suggestion I would think that some clearer terms of engagement would help move this beyond a line-by-line rebutal.

I mean why would the theoretical Incantrix need to give the whole party presisted fly in order to prevent tracks seeing as all he'd need do would be keep himself alive . Given the anount of resources the "enemies" are devoting to stopping the wizard and the ease with which all of them are getting into close proximity to said wizard the rest of his slacker party should be so lucky as to get him to waste buffs on them. Truly it is the only way to progress the conversation beyond "Wizards are great!" and "Nuh uhhhhh".

I for one at least find it somewhat pointless as Wizard/Incantrix really is great and don't believe it can be brought low by the few "tricks" shown so far on this thread, but believe you me I would find an in-depth arguement as to why anyone would think this way fascinating. Please do take care to leave out things like "since most magical portals are protrayed as swirling pools" though and lay off the caps.






 

Draco, the Thought Bottle is an item that allows you to 'shelve xp' and lock in your xp total. So what you do is spend money and xp on a magical item, then use the Thought Bottle to get back all your xp.

It was originally designed as an anti-energy drain/resurrection level drain item, but given the voluntary nature of it, immediately got scoped into all sorts of ways to redo characters and pay xp costs without actually paying them, pick up templates that cost xp and get all the xp back, etc.

Horribly abusive item. It never, ever sees use in actual play.  

The 'tinfoil hat' concept was designed to defeat an anti-magic shell. Basically, you shrink down a big cone, or a polymorphed barrier, and wear it around. When an anti-magic shell touches it, it naturally loses the morph/returns to full size, surrounding you in something with total cover, and blocking off the AM shell since the shell is an emnation.

Your wizard then pats himself on the back and gets the heck out of dodge.

Unfortunately, a tinfoil barrier won't provide total cover, and so won't block the emnation. He'd need something a bit sturdier...and Shrink Item by itself can't shrink down an item large enough to do the job.      

Eld, your posting language and style indicates you're probably from the BG forums too, which has an entirely unrealistic interpretation of the game. CJ certainly is, and is suspicously similar in posting style to someone who had a dozen accounts banned from the wizard servers. 

Nobody is denying the power of wizards and incantatrixes, but for CJ it's obvious that there are no wizards but Incantatars, because natural selection would take care of it, and he's a regular Schroedinger's Wizard user, meaning trite statements that don't hold up, always having unlimited spell selection and availability, and unlimited time and funds he can adjust on spur of the moment to have the perfect solution to any problem.

And he probably can't word a Contingency effectively, either.

==Aelryinth      

Nov 25, 2012 -- 6:48AM, Vincent_Dranoch wrote:

Totally relying on Metamagic Effect for your buff routine not only removes flexibility,

 No, it doesn't. The flexibility of Metamagic Effect by itself is already much better and wider than Instant Metamagic's flexibility. Adding Instant and Vestige Metamagic on the build doesn't do anything that Metamagic Effect can't do.

Which is why it's better not to waste every single Metamagic Effect on buffs. Try to keep up.

but loses out on the absurd versatility of Metamagic Effect,

You don't lose anything, i don't know from where did you get that idea. Metamagic Effect's versatility is the same with or without Instant Metamagic because it does the same Instant does but better, so adding Instant doesn't do anything new.

So you mean Metamagic Effect lets you make certain buffs Ocular for free, without using any of the Metamagic Effect uses? Good to know.

and limits your number of buffs/day.

3+Int mod per day isn't limited, it's more than your daily uses of Instant and Vestige Metamagic.

Residual Magic, bro. Look it up. Quite a nifty little feat.

Furthermore, Metamagic Effect is only useful on persistable buffs. My build has a wider range of useful buffs, because it can make use of the various ways to make non-persistable spells persistable.

Turning Non-Persistable Spells into Persistables there is NOTHING to do with Metamagic Effect, Instant Metamagic or such. These Incantatrix's abilities will only help to Persist spells after you make them someway persistable, so you're still wasting 10 levels for something you can do with 3, sorry.

So, you mean to say that none of the Incantatrix's abilities help using Ocular spell?

Nov 25, 2012 -- 10:29AM, aelryinth wrote:

OMG, he actually resorted To the THOUGHT BOTTLE.

Oh, you mean the item I brought up a page or two ago and you missed?

LOLOLOLOL. That, my friends, is the sign of a really weak argument.

By that very same argument, using letters is a sign of a weak argument. 7\/93 1337-11|.

Do tell me how you're going to cast 4 Persistent Swift Fly spells at level 8 on other people. What's the level pre-req for Incantatrix? Oh, you can't DO this trick until you are an Incantatrix...if the DM allows the PrC! Hey, great, ALL WIZARDS ARE NOW INCANTATRIXES regardless of what the DM says!

You can't do it until you're an Incantatrix. Or an Anima Mage. Or a Mystic Theurge. Or an Ultimate Magus. Or bothered investing in Metamagic-reduction feats. And this is, of course, assuming you actually need to make all of your party members fly.

So, as far as I can tell, your only counter-argument is "o hai teh DM might ban about a half a dozen PrCs."

Kewl! But I suppose that's not all that bad, because he's using over half his Persistents on spells for others! Um, what other hundreds of buffs are you keeping on yourself at level 8, now?

Only the good ones at this level. Just enough to be immune to the nastier stuff, with a bit of protection. It really depends on the race.

Then explain to me why every other wizard in the world isn't doing the exact same thing as you, and everyone over the level of 8 isn't flying all the time.

First off, there aren't many PCs, much less wizards. And "None of the cool kids are doing it" isn't an excuse.

Oh, look! He pulled out the trifecta of blink (Detect Invis, Ghost touch stops cold), Displacement (an illusion easily defeated by multiple senses) and Mirror Image (foiled by Tremorsense, blindsight, detect Illusion, true Sight, Mindsight). I was expecting invisibility, but Detect Invis and the other divs thwart that, too, not to mention simple Spot checks.

Okay, you need a couple of decent-level buffs or some exotic senses to beat them, along with a pretty mediocre enhancement. I am unimpressed.

The rules state very clearly that putting one extra-dimensional space inside another is a very bad thing. ANd you're going to be dumb enough to CREATE one? You deserve what happens to you. And WHAM, his wizards all start their adventuring career at 8th level, too! Isn't that convenient!
Note: Once again, not bothering to look at the rules RIGHT IN THE Rope Trick SPELL IN THE SRD.
To Wit: Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one. 

Okay, now tell me what happens? Oh, yeah, nothing. Try again.

But he thought that since he was 'creating one', instead of maybe 'carrying one' (that got shot down earlier, remember?), he could get away with it.  

Nope. There are no rules for anything happening. So, nothing happens.

And he has unlimited spell capacity, because 'spells are cheap'. Righto, baby-o. It's darling how Schroedinger's Wizard gets to hand wave little things like cash, time and spells per day, isn't it?

Wizards? Hurting for cash? You're joking, right?

Time and spells? You get your spells back every day, and I very highly doubt that any given wizard will always be out adventuring every minute of every day.

And naturally he won't define any of his contingencies, because he knows they will get shot down. Every Schroedinger's Wizard with Contingents I've ever seen that actually defined his conditions put his foot in his mouth hard as the language was torn apart, or so open ended getting attacked by a mosquito set it off. There were about a dozen or two on my Lockdown thread, and NONE of them worked. Actually, I think that's where the 'vs anti-magic hat' first became a meme, or close to it.

[citation needed]

Astral Projection by a mage is subject to a dispel, as it is a spell. The one by a nightmare is subject to all the others. DO keep up.

Exactly. The SU one is a fifth-level spell, meaning nobody will ever cast the 9th level one. And, sure, it's vulnerable to what? Disjunction and AMF? Yawn.

Sticking a packet of dust of Negation into a bulb on an arrow or as a sling bullet to explode when it hits an object will trigger it just fine, and create the 'mage hoisted by his own petard' effect quite nicely, thank you.

Please go and reread the text of Dust of Negation.

Optionally, the person can just run up to you and throw it in the air while in your face. Guess what? Your hat will drop down around the two of you. Things might get a little squishy. Alternatively, they could, you know, push it off to one side, and you're still in the A-M shell, and probably starting a grapple with a superior opponent.

Incorrect. First off, they'd have to enter your square before activating it, giving you plenty of chances to respond, and then the hat is shaped wrong for that to work

And now he's trying to argue that because the rules only mention invisible creatures, spot checks can't possibly see invisible objects, either. Oh, how rich. And consistently avoiding the idea that the portal is magical and easily detected.  Also, you were kind enough to quote HALF the rule, attempting to mislead everyone, to wit: A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40).   Now, I'm not sure where a gaping magical portal holds on there, but it's definitely one of those. Since most magical portals are protrayed as swirling pools, I'm probably guessing a 30; in motion, but not 'moving'.

Wrong. A portal is not an object. And there is no support for portals "looking swirly and in motion."

Oh, oh, he's using SHRINK ITEM now for his 'tinfoil hat'. Did you even bother to read the spell description? No?
You DO realize that it has a volume limit of 2 cu feet/level?

Yes. You obviously do not realize that applies only to the object.

A human body is going to require a minimum of 12 cubic feet to fit comfortably within a properly shaped container, and a tinfoil hat is not a properly shaped container. The reason I used polymorph any object is because you could transform a proper barrier device into a comfortable hat. How exactly are you going to be wearing this shrunken item of rather past your level in cubic volume comfortably?

So, you're claiming that A hat with a maximum size of 16 cubic feet(Which, by the way does not include the contents. You're confusing something's capacity and its volume for some reason), cannot contain a human, which you've placed the comfortable minimum at 12 cubic feet? Lol.

In gaming terms, you have to have an object that completely envelopes your space to stop an emnation from reaching you.

Wrong. Line of effect:

Line of Effect

A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It’s like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it’s not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.
...
An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell’s line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell’s line of effect. 

Furthermore, it has to be sturdier then armor or a shield, on the level of a Tower Shield, to provide the needed level of TOTAL COVER deferment, otherwise it's just considered a part of you (akin to throwing a sheet over yourself) and doesn't do the job.

Wrong. It must only block line of sight.

So, at level 75, when you can Shrink Item an object that blocks out a 5x5x6 space to provide Total Cover for you, look us up. Or, you know, wait until you're level 15, 3/4 of the game is done, and you can actually pull off this trick that won't protect you once the AM center is inside your own hat trapping you.

Once again, a hat is not a solid prism. You are not shrinking it as if it were. You are shrinking only the volume of the hat, itself.

Come now...your arguments are sprouting more holes then a gopher colony. Why don't you go back and do some studying, and come back with some trite optimization rules that might actually work, and don't involve totally broken magical objects that no sane DM will put into his game?  

There is so much wrong here, I don't know where to start.

See, I back mine up with facts, like LoE. You just make up stuff about total cover or swirtly, physically tangible portals.

Seriously, you're the first person to even mention the Thought Bottle on these boards in years. Doing so is pure munchkin power gaming, NOT optimization. It's considered on a par with actually letting some of the Pun-Pun and sarluk mechanics actually work.

And, now accusations on munchkinry on top of microvision, latching on to some very peripheral part of my point. Nice.

Nov 25, 2012 -- 9:22PM, aelryinth wrote:

Draco, the Thought Bottle is an item that allows you to 'shelve xp' and lock in your xp total. So what you do is spend money and xp on a magical item, then use the Thought Bottle to get back all your xp.

It was originally designed as an anti-energy drain/resurrection level drain item, but given the voluntary nature of it, immediately got scoped into all sorts of ways to redo characters and pay xp costs without actually paying them, pick up templates that cost xp and get all the xp back, etc.

[citation needed] on intent.

Horribly abusive item. It never, ever sees use in actual play.  

And now you're claiming your bizarre, tenuous grasp of the rules is the One True Way^tm? Nice. I thought that was reserved for us evil roll-players, you know, people who actually pay attention to rules.

The 'tinfoil hat' concept was designed to defeat an anti-magic shell. Basically, you shrink down a big cone, or a polymorphed barrier, and wear it around. When an anti-magic shell touches it, it naturally loses the morph/returns to full size, surrounding you in something with total cover, and blocking off the AM shell since the shell is an emnation

Not cover. Line of effect. Big difference.

Your wizard then pats himself on the back and gets the heck out of dodge.

Unfortunately, a tinfoil barrier won't provide total cover, and so won't block the emnation. He'd need something a bit sturdier...and Shrink Item by itself can't shrink down an item large enough to do the job.      

Wrong, yet again.

Eld, your posting language and style indicates you're probably from the BG forums too, which has an entirely unrealistic interpretation of the game. CJ certainly is, and is suspicously similar in posting style to someone who had a dozen accounts banned from the wizard servers.

Nope, sorry. First account here. Who did you think I was? Goldo?

And, more to the point, what do you mean "unrealistic?"

Nobody is denying the power of wizards and incantatrixes, but for CJ it's obvious that there are no wizards but Incantatars, because natural selection would take care of it, and he's a regular Schroedinger's Wizard user, meaning trite statements that don't hold up, always having unlimited spell selection and availability, and unlimited time and funds he can adjust on spur of the moment to have the perfect solution to any problem.

Look up Uncanny Forethought. Schrodinger's Wizard is fact.

And he probably can't word a Contingency effectively, either.

I can. Obviously better than you, given your intense lack of understanding of the power of Contingencies.

Sometimes I wonder why I bother. Some people just don't want to learn.

Nov 26, 2012 -- 12:48PM, Cyclone_Joker wrote:

Sometimes I wonder why I bother. Some people just don't want to learn.

Do you mind giving up then? You are clearly smarter than everyone, and we can't grasp your super advanced concepts even a little bit. Its obviously a waste of your time to keep posting here.

Nov 26, 2012 -- 1:06PM, Krusk wrote:

Nov 26, 2012 -- 12:48PM, Cyclone_Joker wrote:

Sometimes I wonder why I bother. Some people just don't want to learn.

Do you mind giving up then? You are clearly smarter than everyone, and we can't grasp your super advanced concepts even a little bit. Its obviously a waste of your time to keep posting here.

And deprive you of my brilliance? I couldn't be so cruel.

The volume of the hat is the area the hat occupies. It doesn't restrict by weight. And it does it in blocks of 2 ft cubed at a time. Nowhere does it say you can customize the area of effect outside 2 ft cubed/level. If it doesn't fit in contiguous blocks, you can't shrink it. In other words, if it's an item thats 4'x 1' x 6", by the area of the spell, you can't Shrink it...it will fall outside the cubic foot requirements of the spell. You can't sculpt the spell because it doesn't allow you to do so.

And creating extradimensional spaces inside of others doesn't 'do nothing', otherwise it wouldn't be 'hazardous'. 'Hazardous' without definition means 'let the DM determine the consequences of doing this, and it should be bad', not 'nothing happens'. 

Eesh. metagame, much?     

So, no, you can't make that hat, darling.

Whether or not the tinfoil is going to be enough to block the Shell is going to be a DM call. If it's thin, and I mean thin enough to qualify for wearing comfortably as a hat, it isn't going to block line of effect any more then wearing a cloth sheet would.

And wizards aren't melee. Something moves into your space, you likely can't do a blessed thing, because you cast a spell and don't have a melee weapon readied. Or are you going to blow yet another of your unlimited feat selection on making touch spells an AoO? Claim that you're going to be in a polymorphed form all day at level 3 with readied nat weapons while spellcasting?

Uncanny Forethought has limitations on what spells you know, and is yet another feat your incantatrix somehow has. Where ARE you getting all these metamagic feats? Residual Metamagic on top of things, yet. Schroedinger's wizard, unlimited feat selection, too!

None of the serious Optimizers on this board use the Thought Bottle anymore, it was broken as badly as Sarluuk poly other. It's a dead item, and even referencing it is a clear arrow to a munchkin mindset. Welcome to Gillikin land, Schroedinger Wizard, darling.

Given the liberality you're taking with the rules, I find it highly amusing that something that burst up and disperses dust over a 10' area is a no go with you. Oh, wait, it would shut down your wizard. Of course it can't work.

And as for your miss defenses poo-poo...blindsight is available on large numbers of monsters below level 5, tremorsense is available to low level elementals, Detect Invis and Det Illusion can both be made permanent, and the former is long-lasting; Ghost Touch is available as Serren Wood for little cost and doesn't even have to be magical; and True Seeing is available on an erinyes and tons of creatures stronger then one, not to mention once/day magical items and the like, or even Gems of Seeing...and not to mention a single AoE spell would clear out every mirror image you toss up. The idea that you'd blow three spell slots on having all of them up at one time is amusing, especially for multiple fights, and gold costs are going to rein in having them as magical items. Except, of course, Schroedinger's wizard with unlimited gold.  

And you're using a Nightmare for Astral Projection. Wonderful. Except a summoned creature is highly susceptible to being dispelled because it's summoned; it's evil and totally untrustworthy; and it's a nightmare. It dies if someone sneezes too hard at it, and gets banished at the drop of a hat, and you with it. Ta, darling. 

You note that the entire party is flying at level 8, then talk around the point that it's impossible. You claim infinite amounts of money for wizards, and that's a freaking riot...and where are you fitting in crafting feats amidst all these metamagic feats you suddenly have, darling? 

Your arguments are narrow and extremely unconvincing, pure Schroedinger's Wizard. You have unlimited everything, OF COURSE you can handle anything. In the real game, things tend to not work out so marvelously. There's little things like time, money, limited spell knowledge, limited resources/day, and per level gold guidelines that you obviously aren't playing with in the games that you are.

==Aelryinth       

Nov 26, 2012 -- 6:08PM, aelryinth wrote:

The volume of the hat is the area the hat occupies. It doesn't restrict by weight. And it does it in blocks of 2 ft cubed at a time. Nowhere does it say you can customize the area of effect outside 2 ft cubed/level. If it doesn't fit in contiguous blocks, you can't shrink it. In other words, if it's an item thats 4'x 1' x 6", by the area of the spell, you can't Shrink it...it will fall outside the cubic foot requirements of the spell. You can't sculpt the spell because it doesn't allow you to do so.

Wrong. It does not say anywhere that it is one block of 2 cubic feet per level. It must be an object with a total volume of 2 cubic feet per level.

And creating extradimensional spaces inside of others doesn't 'do nothing', otherwise it wouldn't be 'hazardous'. 'Hazardous' without definition means 'let the DM determine the consequences of doing this, and it should be bad', not 'nothing happens'.

Wrong. Rope Trick does not say "O hai dm, make up something to kill peeps." It does nothing, because it doesn't say it does anything.

Eesh. metagame, much?

If knowing what spells do is metagaming, I do not want to be at your tables.

So, no, you can't make that hat, darling.

Yes, I can.

Whether or not the tinfoil is going to be enough to block the Shell is going to be a DM call. If it's thin, and I mean thin enough to qualify for wearing comfortably as a hat, it isn't going to block line of effect any more then wearing a cloth sheet would.

Wrong. All that matters is that it is solid, without a hole of more than one square foot. Nothing else enters into the picture.

And wizards aren't melee. Something moves into your space, you likely can't do a blessed thing, because you cast a spell and don't have a melee weapon readied. Or are you going to blow yet another of your unlimited feat selection on making touch spells an AoO? Claim that you're going to be in a polymorphed form all day at level 3 with readied nat weapons while spellcasting?

Contingency, bro. Or Celerity. Basically, them entering your space tells you exactly what will happen.

And, bro? If your enemies are throwing one-shot items worth more than your WBL, I'm quite worried.

Uncanny Forethought has limitations on what spells you know, and is yet another feat your incantatrix somehow has. Where ARE you getting all these metamagic feats? Residual Metamagic on top of things, yet. Schroedinger's wizard, unlimited feat selection, too!

Uh, no. Uncanny Forethought works for any spell you know. Where are you getting this from? Every wizard takes this, and it's not like Incantatrix has much entry requirements.

And, feats are only unlimited at levels when IA and Simulacrum are cool. 

None of the serious Optimizers on this board use the Thought Bottle anymore, it was broken as badly as Sarluuk poly other. It's a dead item, and even referencing it is a clear arrow to a munchkin mindset. Welcome to Gillikin land, Schroedinger Wizard, darling.

Uh, no. Try again.

Given the liberality you're taking with the rules, I find it highly amusing that something that burst up and disperses dust over a 10' area is a no go with you. Oh, wait, it would shut down your wizard. Of course it can't work.

Read what is says. It starts in your square.

And as for your miss defenses poo-poo...blindsight is available on large numbers of monsters below level 5,

None of which are threatening in any way.

tremorsense is available to low level elementals,

Which are, again, so weak you don't need to bother

Detect Invis and Det Illusion can both be made permanent, and the former is long-lasting;

And this will help you against one buff. Okay.

Ghost Touch is available as Serren Wood for little cost and doesn't even have to be magical;

Okay. Your point?

and True Seeing is available on an erinyes and tons of creatures stronger then one, not to mention once/day magical items and the like, or even Gems of Seeing...and not to mention a single AoE spell would clear out every mirror image you toss up. The idea that you'd blow three spell slots on having all of them up at one time is amusing, especially for multiple fights, and gold costs are going to rein in having them as magical items. Except, of course, Schroedinger's wizard with unlimited gold.  

So, basically, all of these defenses are absolutely worthless because they can be beat by an unholy lovechild of several different creatues with exotic sense, or high-level weak creature, or people kitted out with gear specifically to counter that sort of thing? Okay. 

And you're using a Nightmare for Astral Projection. Wonderful. Except a summoned creature is highly susceptible to being dispelled because it's summoned; it's evil and totally untrustworthy; and it's a nightmare. It dies if someone sneezes too hard at it, and gets banished at the drop of a hat, and you with it. Ta, darling.  

Reread Astral Projection, bro. The Nightmare's status of Called or not has no relevence on whether or not your AP is up, and its trustworthiness is irrelevent. It is being compelled.
[You note that the entire party is flying at level 8, then talk around the point that it's impossible. You claim infinite amounts of money for wizards, and that's a freaking riot...and where are you fitting in crafting feats amidst all these metamagic feats you suddenly have, darling?

There is so much wrong with this, I'm not going to start. IF you cannot keep up, don't bother. You're just embarrassing yourself.

Your arguments are narrow and extremely unconvincing, pure Schroedinger's Wizard. You have unlimited everything, OF COURSE you can handle anything. In the real game, things tend to not work out so marvelously. There's little things like time, money, limited spell knowledge, limited resources/day, and per level gold guidelines that you obviously aren't playing with in the games that you are.

In other words, you do not understand the difference between a wizard with a nice player, taking care to not step on anyone's toes and be a team player, and what a wizard can actually be.

And WBL is so easy to break, I can't believe you would seriously bring this up. 

Which is why it's better not to waste every single Metamagic Effect on buffs. Try to keep up.

You got 3+Int mod Metamagic Effect per day for 3 levels of Incantatrix, for more 4 levels you got ONE instant metamagic that does the same thing Metamagic Effect does, so you don't want to waste Metamagic Effect uses because you got ONE extra use after spending 4 more levels?

Please.

Nov 27, 2012 -- 6:17AM, Vincent_Dranoch wrote:

Which is why it's better not to waste every single Metamagic Effect on buffs. Try to keep up.

You got 3+Int mod Metamagic Effect per day for 3 levels of Incantatrix, for more 4 levels you got ONE instant metamagic that does the same thing Metamagic Effect does, so you don't want to waste Metamagic Effect uses because you got ONE extra use after spending 4 more levels?

Please.

Oh, of course. Because Incantatrix never gets ANYTHING at all beyond Metamagic Effect and Instant Metamagic, no siree. And of COURSE Metamagic effect lets you make every single spell in the universe Persistable. I'm so glad you're here to inform us of the invisible text telling us of these secret abilities and the fake text there to stump people! I don't know what we would do without you!

 

Your sarcasm won't change the fact that with Metamagic Effect all you need is just a successful Spellcraft check to turn Persisted any spell in effect (only if the spell can be affected by this feat of course).

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The area of Shrink Item increases in 2 ft cubed increments. You don't get to deviate from that. You don't get to shape it to whatever you want. You get increments of 2ft cubed. The area of the spell is not infinitely customizable to your item. saying you can do that is akin to saying you can transmute Rock to mud in a 1' plane hundreds of feet wide and long, and take out a mountainside.

Sorry, no, darling. THe spell even quotes a SIZE LIMIT, not a mass limit. It's looking at area, and you have to abide by the area rules.

And look, your wizard is falling back on Celerity, which if he plays EVERYONE is going to use since it's the I WIN button, and somehow he has an unworded contingency that does the job. Perfect Schroedinger's wizard again!

And he poo-poos how easily his superb defenses can be overcome with fewer spells (A couple summoned/called monsters) then he uses to put them up in the first place. Double standards, much?  

His nightmare defense made no sense whatsoever.   

He poos the fact you're talking about infinite gold, infinite buffs, and infinite feats. Classic Schroedinger Wizard again.

And suddenly all wizards have Uncanny Forethought as a class ability. Wow, when did that happen?

And you can't break WBL unless the DM lets you break it. That's all there is to THAT. 


So, yeah, really not seeing his arguments here. Just the words of someone who is uttering stuff that just isn't true.

==Aelryinth  

Nov 30, 2012 -- 7:27PM, aelryinth wrote:

The area of Shrink Item increases in 2 ft cubed increments. You don't get to deviate from that. You don't get to shape it to whatever you want. You get increments of 2ft cubed. The area of the spell is not infinitely customizable to your item. saying you can do that is akin to saying you can transmute Rock to mud in a 1' plane hundreds of feet wide and long, and take out a mountainside.

Uh, yeah, [citation needed]

It's 2 cubic feet/level. This doesn't mean it must be done in cubes of 2 cubic feet. There is nothing at all saying I cannot make it thinner and longer.

Sorry, no, darling. THe spell even quotes a SIZE LIMIT, not a mass limit. It's looking at area, and you have to abide by the area rules.

You really don't get this whole "volume" concept, do you?

And look, your wizard is falling back on Celerity, which if he plays EVERYONE is going to use since it's the I WIN button, and somehow he has an unworded contingency that does the job. Perfect Schroedinger's wizard again!

You really just don't understand the game at all. You're making a fool of yourself, trottting out "evidence" that is just plain wrong, and are incredibly annoying. I think we're done.

And he poo-poos how easily his superb defenses can be overcome with fewer spells (A couple summoned/called monsters) then he uses to put them up in the first place. Double standards, much?  

Uh, no. Try again. 

His nightmare defense made no sense whatsoever.  

No, your apparent lack of understanding of what a Su ability means makes no sense whatsoever.

He poos the fact you're talking about infinite gold, infinite buffs, and infinite feats. Classic Schroedinger Wizard again.

First off, I wasn't trotting them out, you were trying to put those words in my mouth. Second off, arbitrary, not infinite. Third, arbitrary feats, gold, and buffs is pathetically easy. Not my fault you don't understand the basics.

And suddenly all wizards have Uncanny Forethought as a class ability. Wow, when did that happen?

Same time all Druids got Natural Spell.

And you can't break WBL unless the DM lets you break it. That's all there is to THAT.  

Wrong. Totally, completely, flat out wrong.

So, yeah, really not seeing his arguments here. Just the words of someone who is uttering stuff that just isn't true.

You know, what's really depressing is that "no u" is not only accurate, it's probably the best response possible. Better than dignifying this absurdity with a serious response.

Yeah, like you can tailor the volume and size characteristics of ANY OTHER SPELL OUT THERE at will. Oh, but suddenly you can do it with Shrink Item, because you're a Schroedinger's Wizard and you want to.


And you're still falling back on Celerity as a defense. Laughable.

And your nightmare defense still doesn't make sense to the original argument, regardless of your dismissals, which means you're hand-waving supremacy again, little Schroedinger.

And yes, arbirtrary feats, golds and stuff is all pitifully easy if you don't have to keep track of those things. Unlike, you know, the game requires.

Oh, right. Odd. Don't see Uncanny Forethought on most wizard builds out there. Even the optimizer builds here. Strange, that. And unlike Natural Spell, it's not core, either. It's not even a comparison on allowability and play frequency.

BWAHAHAHAHA. You can break WBL if the DM DOES NOT ALLOW IT? BWAHAHAHAHAHA.

It's really, really depressing that you don't know what you're talking about, and yet you post like nobody else does, and only you do. Total BG forum attitude, Schroedinger wizard and all.

==Aelryinth
     

            

Dec 1, 2012 -- 3:09PM, aelryinth wrote:

Yeah, like you can tailor the volume and size characteristics of ANY OTHER SPELL OUT THERE at will. Oh, but suddenly you can do it with Shrink Item, because you're a Schroedinger's Wizard and you want to.

No. Are you honestly this dense?

2 cubic feet does not mean a you're stuck with a cube. It ain't complicated.

And you're still falling back on Celerity as a defense. Laughable.

Not at all.

And your nightmare defense still doesn't make sense to the original argument, regardless of your dismissals, which means you're hand-waving supremacy again, little Schroedinger.

Dismissal does nothing.

And yes, arbirtrary feats, golds and stuff is all pitifully easy if you don't have to keep track of those things. Unlike, you know, the game requires.

No, it's pitifully easy if you know how the game works. Not my fault you've never opened a single book.

Oh, right. Odd. Don't see Uncanny Forethought on most wizard builds out there. Even the optimizer builds here. Strange, that.

So? You don't see Mindbender on almost all the builds here, despite that being superior in most cases. Your point?

And unlike Natural Spell, it's not core, either. It's not even a comparison on allowability and play frequency.

And this is relevent, how?

BWAHAHAHAHA. You can break WBL if the DM DOES NOT ALLOW IT? BWAHAHAHAHAHA.

*FACEPALM*

"The DM can stop it" is not an excuse. It's pathetic.

It's really, really depressing that you don't know what you're talking about, and yet you post like nobody else does, and only you do. Total BG forum attitude, Schroedinger wizard and all.

Funny. Thing is, I do know what I'm talking about. 'Cuz, yanno, I know the rules. Apparently unlike you.

And now for something completely different: A man ignoring CJ's Trolling. ( www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHJmCQohYVk )

Nov 14, 2012 -- 7:25PM, chaoz wrote:

Yeah I know ECL 24 is crazy. But I am very excited and got pigeonholed a lot by the choices. I am making a wizard type guy, can some one help me with it? I know it will be focused specialist, with some levels of archmage. But what else to throw in? Also, DM is very experienced and strict on "broken things", so I am making a powerful but not broken char.

Thanks a lot!

Chaoz 

If you say that your DM is against breaking the action economy how about playing a mind rapist? a build Like Enchanter Wizard 3/ Spell Thief 1/ Master Specialist 10/ Mind Bender 10 wouldn't be horribly bad and fall in line with what I take your DM's opinion of acceptable optimization to be. Throw in master spell thief and you can steal any spells from forbidden school from other spell casters, mind sight will allow you to tell if a creature has an intelligence score or not (letting you know if they can be enchanted at all), and practice spell caster will eat up most of the lost levels in terms of your CL. Master specialist and mind bender also give boosts to the caster level of enchantment spells, so you would start out with a base caster level of 23 (assuming you take practiced spell caster) but your enchantment spells will actually have a caster level of 29.

I believe you mentioned that your DM has limited you to a set number of "controlled" characters (I'd quote the post, but I don't really feel like trudging through the quagmire of debate right now), so a good question would be does he consider dominated or charmed monsters to fall under that ruling? If yes, then I would opt for something else, if no, then prepare to be the face of the party as most people who see you will probably like you due to your magic is making them, a decent diplomacy check, or because they are drooling and awaiting your command to smash things. Also look forward to decent discounts on magic items ( I say discounts because charming a person into 10% off may be accepted by your DM, whereas most would outright kill you off for dominating shop owners into giving you things) and free room and bord at the local lords houses cause they thing your just fine and dandy.

Edit: Also look into the feat arcane disciple to see about adding spells from the domination domain onto your spell list. It could lead to some fun.

Nov 14, 2012 -- 7:25PM, chaoz wrote:

Yeah I know ECL 24 is crazy. But I am very excited and got pigeonholed a lot by the choices. I am making a wizard type guy, can some one help me with it? I know it will be focused specialist, with some levels of archmage. But what else to throw in? Also, DM is very experienced and strict on "broken things", so I am making a powerful but not broken char.

Thanks a lot!

Chaoz 

What epic rules your DM going to apply, he going to use the Epic Level Hanbook Update or the Standard 3.5 Epic Core????

At this level maybe you need a good Hp maybe a template and good support spells like greater celerity,greater  teleport, nondetection, mind blank, Moment of Prescience, true seeing, assay spell resistan and others.